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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #14 - 11/11/17 at 07:41:01
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The  book of S. Kasparov about the hedgehol has a chapter about 5.Bd3.
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #13 - 11/10/17 at 07:52:43
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Perhaps your point is if Black doesn't meet 5.Be2 with either 5...Nf6 or 5...b5, White can play 6.c4 and transpose to the Kotronias/Semkov repertoire?

I can see that Kamsky's 5 ...b6 might land Black in K+S's main 7 Be2/9 Qd3 line, which seems to score very well for White. Personally I'd have gone for (in the K+S move order) 7 ...Bb4 anyway; but after 7 ...b6 8 0-0 Bb7 9 Qd3 instead, why can't Black go 9 ...Bb4? I guess after 10 f3 Black will lose a tempo sometime retreating his Bishop, but then presumably the Qd3 will get hit at some point ...
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #12 - 11/10/17 at 04:16:10
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gewgaw wrote on 11/09/17 at 22:56:55:


Perhaps your point is if Black doesn't meet 5.Be2 with either 5...Nf6 or 5...b5, White can play 6.c4 and transpose to the Kotronias/Semkov repertoire?

Certainly after 5.Be2 d6 6.c4 White has the luxury of not even having to worry about ...Bb4 lines.
  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #11 - 11/10/17 at 00:25:22
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As for the initial topic 5.Nc3 d6, I drew the conclusion that 6.g4 should still give White an edge.

I myself had 6 g4 down as one of White's best moves, and here Milov's own treatment (he lost twice to Ponomariov) seems questionable. But I thought there was a bit of a consensus that 6 ...Nc6(!) 7 Be3 (better than 7 Bg2 Nge7?) Nge7 is OK for Black? -- the material on ChessPublishing seems to suggest so.

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The main problem with the move order is the noted possibility of 5.c4 when Black does not play an early ...Nf6.

My feeling is that 5 c4! is just the strongest reply to the Kan! I've no idea how the complicated lines after 5 ...Nf6 (what else?) 6 Nc3 Qc7 7 a3 are holding up (if they are), but so far as I know Black has no good alternative to entering them. Maybe they're thought OK, at least OTB, since I read on the ChessBase site that that the Kan is experiencing a surge in popularity ...


  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #10 - 11/09/17 at 23:58:58
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Michael Ayton wrote on 11/09/17 at 22:07:16:
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I thought 5.Be2 b5 6.a4 was meant to favour White, as ...b4 won't gain a tempo on a c3-knight anymore.

Maybe there are other factors in the position? After 6 ...b4 7 0-0 Bb7 8 Bf3 (not the only move, of course), Hellsten (rightly or wrongly!) claims that no fewer than three moves are OK for Black!

A fair question - my old analysis had indicated this as being in White's favour, but the engine's initial +0.30 assessment seems to decrease as one extends the line. For that reason, I would much prefer the plans with 6.0-0 Bb7 7.c4!, where I really like White's initiative.

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The 6...Bb4 7.0-0 d6 lines are possible, but practically speaking I find 8.Qd3! a little annoying there.

I don't immediately see what's so bad for Black if he just castles now, but of course there are numerous continuations. How do you think White gets/maintains an edge?


It is certainly a playable and objectively equal line for Black - hence my wording 'practically speaking'. Actually, 8.Nb3!? seems an interesting direction, but it was only tested in one correspondence game:



In any case, in recent high-level games, most players transpose to 5...Nf6 6.Nc3 d6/Qc7, which means they are happy with the theoretical state of the Scheveningen/Taimanov, or don't find the independent Kan lines after 5.Be2 as comfortable/trustworthy.

As for the initial topic 5.Nc3 d6, I drew the conclusion that 6.g4 should still give White an edge. In the other variations, Black's independent options are indeed somewhat appealing, and I'm not surprised that strong GMs such as Milov have done well with it in practice. The main problem with the move order is the noted possibility of 5.c4 when Black does not play an early ...Nf6.
  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #9 - 11/09/17 at 23:54:58
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Read more closely...Smiley
  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #8 - 11/09/17 at 23:27:49
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As usual, nothing is new under the sun

This doesn't cover the lines we've been talking about, does it? (But I'd be interested to know what they say about the 5 c4 Nf6 6 Nc3 Qc7 7 Be2 Bb4 Kan line ...)
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #7 - 11/09/17 at 22:56:55
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As usual, nothing is new under the sun:

http://www.chess-stars.com/resources/AttackingtheSicilian.pdf
  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #6 - 11/09/17 at 22:07:16
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I thought 5.Be2 b5 6.a4 was meant to favour White, as ...b4 won't gain a tempo on a c3-knight anymore.

Maybe there are other factors in the position? After 6 ...b4 7 0-0 Bb7 8 Bf3 (not the only move, of course), Hellsten (rightly or wrongly!) claims that no fewer than three moves are OK for Black!

Quote:
The 6...Bb4 7.0-0 d6 lines are possible, but practically speaking I find 8.Qd3! a little annoying there.

I don't immediately see what's so bad for Black if he just castles now, but of course there are numerous continuations. How do you think White gets/maintains an edge?
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #5 - 11/09/17 at 21:04:42
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I thought 5.Be2 b5 6.a4 was meant to favour White, as ...b4 won't gain a tempo on a c3-knight anymore. As for 5.Be2 d6, 6.c4 is a transposition to a nice Maroczy Bind, right?

As for a solution - personally I felt there wasn't anything better than transposing to the Be2 Scheveningen/Taimanov, with 5...Nf6 6.Nc3 d6/Qc7. The 6...Bb4 7.0-0 d6 lines are possible, but practically speaking I find 8.Qd3! a little annoying there.
  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #4 - 11/09/17 at 18:39:53
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If Hellsten is ancient maybe I had better toss Zeller and Emms in the bin!?

Point taken! I assume a lot's happened in nine years, but then we can't expect a constant stream of new books in every opening under the sun ...

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I realized there were two quiet, annoying problem lines – 3.c3 and 5.Be2

The Alapin is something of a pain in the neck against all Sicilians if you ask me and we all have to cope as best we can! Undecided My own entirely subjective choice against 3 c3 would be 3 ...d5 4 ed Qd5, I think. Against 4 e5!? here I don't mind a French, but I've just noticed that Zapata (a 5 Nc3 d6 Kan player) has played 5 ...Bd7!?, when 6 d4 a6 reaches an (OK?; h'mm) O'Kelly position.
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #3 - 11/09/17 at 17:51:16
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Michael Ayton wrote on 11/09/17 at 16:36:22:
Hellsten's rather ancient book

If Hellsten is ancient maybe I had better toss Zeller and Emms in the bin!? Smiley

Michael Ayton wrote on 11/09/17 at 16:36:22:
where he cites Volokitin-Markowski (but says M. should have played 10 ...Ng6). Hellsten also suggests 5 ...Nf6 6 Nc3 Bb4!? is perfectly OK. Is Kamsky's 5 ...b6!? also an idea (6 0-0 Bb7 7 Nc3 Qc7 8 f4 Bb4!?)? -- I'm not really abreast of any of the theory of these lines, but it's great fun looking at them!

I'm not up on the theory either. I wanted to use the Kan as an unbalanced, mostly positional winning try, but I ditched it when I realized there were two quiet, annoying problem lines – 3.c3 and 5.Be2 – in addition to the three critical main lines.

But I think I saw some decent ideas against 3.c3 in a video recently, and if you've now got 5.Be2 covered I might be tempted back!

  

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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #2 - 11/09/17 at 16:36:22
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I assume you would also meet 5.Be2!? with 5...d6, arguing that White doesn't have any better than transposing back with 6.Nc3?

I guess after 5 Be2!? d6 White can at least go 6 0-0, to get some sort of commitment out of Black!

My first thought about 5 Be2!? was that maybe Black could go 5 ...b5 even without a Nc3 target, and blow me down, that's what Milov has played! That's also recommended in Hellsten's rather ancient book, where he cites Volokitin-Markowski (but says M. should have played 10 ...Ng6). Hellsten also suggests 5 ...Nf6 6 Nc3 Bb4!? is perfectly OK. Is Kamsky's 5 ...b6!? also an idea (6 0-0 Bb7 7 Nc3 Qc7 8 f4 Bb4!?)? -- I'm not really abreast of any of the theory of these lines, but it's great fun looking at them!
  
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Re: Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
Reply #1 - 11/09/17 at 16:00:09
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Interesting. I assume you would also meet 5.Be2!? with 5...d6, arguing that White doesn't have any better than transposing back with 6.Nc3?

I ask because 5.Be2 has struck me as a bit annoying, at least for Black players who don't want to transpose to the Classical Scheveningen or the Taimanov (or at least not immediately).
  

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Kan with 5 Nc3 d6!?
11/09/17 at 14:23:57
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I got interested in this move order after noticing that some GMs (e.g. Milov) who use it regularly tend to avoid immediate transposition to the Najdorf in favour of delaying kingside development, waiting for White to determine his setup before committing the King. Thus Milov usually meets 6 Be2, 6 Be3 and 6 f4 with 6 ...b5; he meets 6 g3 and 6 g4 with 6 ...Ne7 and only against 6 Bd3 does he tend to play 6 ...Nf6. He's met 6 Bc4?! with 6 ...Nc6!? (though 6...b5 7 Bb3 Bb7 scores horribly for White), and on 6 a4, he's played 6 ...b6!?. Most of these independent lines seem to score very well for Black!

There's very little about these options on ChessPublishing, yet the 5 ...d6 move order looks very respectable, and interesting both in independent terms and as a way of steering towards congenial Najdorf/Scheveningen lines while avoiding others. Does anyone know of any good writing on this, or any big drawbacks (either to 5 ...d6 per se or to any of the non-Najdorf lines)?
  
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