Thanks mn.

1. It looks like I may be buying another book, just to see how well covered they are. Probably the buildup I suggested before has been tried, so I would hope to find some kind of answer there.

2. In fact I did play ...Nc6-e7, but it didn't do me much good. I don't remember if I put it on g6, but it would have been pretty worthless on that square. It's easy to get depressed about an opening when getting spanked by a strong player who has the white pieces. However, it was actually the looking at it after which was really depressing, because I didn't see any way to avoid a sub-optimal exchange QGD. There were some other strong players who would prepare for me in those days, no doubt if I had persisted in the Ragozin I would have seen a lot more of Finegold's treatment. Your comment "which makes sense when you compare it to ...Nbd7-f8-e6 in the Carlsbad proper" seems to me just another way of saying the same thing I said earlier: prefer the Orthodox over the Ragozin. At least when the knight arrives on e6 it has prospects. It can get there from g6 as well, but at a cost to black of two extra tempi. To my mind Ragozin is to Orthodox as Old Indian is to King's Indian. Ragozin and Old Indian both work great against weak players. Against strong players not so much. Now that the Ragozin is becoming popular, I just have to shake my head and say I don't understand.

@EricTheRed - I know that thread. I had the Nimzo question in the back of my mind when reading there before. It was ReneDescartes posting Pert's moves here which brought it to the front.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/16/18 at 21:03:03:


1. Well the main issue in the AVRO game is that White has a two-on-one majority in the centre, making it relatively easy for him to push through with e4 and e5. With ...c6 in, White never has the opportunity to trade his redundant c4 pawn for the very useful e6 pawn, as Black can recapture the other way. These lines are well covered by Pert via the move order 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 (4 a3 [!]) 4...Nf6 5 a3 etc.

2. I've seen the c6 Knight retreat to e7 and re-emerge on, say, g6, which makes sense when you compare it to ...Nbd7-f8-e6 in the Carlsbad proper.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/16/18 at 19:28:20:


Regarding the first point, based on my understanding of this stuff, *I think* that's correct. In the line ReneDescartes posted, iirc Pert gave 5...c6 a short section as an alternative. He didn't,  however, mention the dangerous 6 e4!, which (I believe) CarriedbyGg pointed out in another thread.

Regarding the second thing, the line Finegold played against you was 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 d5 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 cxd5 exd5 6 Bg5 h6 7 Bxf6 Qxf6 8 Qa4+ (or something similar), correct?

Via the move order 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 e3 d5 5 a3 Bxc3+ 6 bxc3, Black can play 6...c6!, planning ...cxd5, avoiding the AVRO structure. Via 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Bb4 4 a3 Bxc3+ 5 bxc3 c6!?, White has 6 e4!? dxe4 7 Qg4, reaching a favourable (?) line of the Marshall Gambit.

Also, re: your Ragozin problem, I believe Black is meant to have good counterplay on the Kingside against the variation I think you are describing with ...a6, ...Bd6 and ...g5/...f5.

CanadianClub wrote on 12/24/17 at 17:29:49:


I got the distinct impression that Pert was whistling past the graveyard in treating 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb5 4.a3 Bxc3 5.bxc3 Nf6 6.cxd5 exd5 7.e3. Maybe Black can hold theoretically, especially if Black is an engine, but it looks harder to play with Black. Common sense dictates that the accelerated version would be much more popular if it were ok.

In Chessbase, I see that top-level players sometimes allow it as Black, but almost entirely against weaker players. It seems the so-called accelerated Ragozin is used to sharpen the game or as a surprise weapon. White often plays Nf3 or Bf4 in response, but I think that's to bail out of an unusual line in order to avoid presumed preparation rather than to play the better move. When White does go right down the main line above (Which Pert himself says is White's best), White has an excellent record. In fact, from games with both players over 2000, I see only one game where Black beat someone not lower-rated!

ErictheRed wrote on 12/23/17 at 22:38:52:


I thought the best way for White to deal with this move order is to enter in the main line Ragozin with 4.Nf3. At least us what Max Illingworth wrote (if I am not mistaken).

100% agree with Eric in his post.

@Marcellus, if you play the Nimzo, the Ragozin is your option. If you play the Noteboom it's easy to get similar positions from Ragozin and Acc.Ragozin. If not, it's up to you. Both are good. I think Niko's book explains more basically the plans for Black, while Pert book seems to me more advanced (well explained also). But both are very good books to make a repertoire based on them. Nikos starts after 1.d4 d5. Pert after d4+c4 by Black, so London, Torre, Tromp... are not covered (they're in Ntirlis').

Salut,

The reason to play the QGD instead of the Ragozin, and vice versa, is because you want to.   

These days, the QGD and proper Ragozin seem to be of approximately equal soundness (I'm not convinced that the Accelerated Ragozin is equally as sound if White plays critically).  While some positions arising from either defense can be quite similar, they often lead to very different types of positions, so a person should play the one that leads to the types of positions that they prefer.  The Ragozin often sees Black adopting a "light-squared strategy," similar to some lines of the Nimzo and Queen's Indian.  If you like that sort of thing, you play the Ragozin.   

There seems to be more unexplored territory in the Ragozin, which appeals to many players.  On the other hand, there's probably less risk associated with playing the QGD, in the sense that you are less likely to be hit with a strong novelty than in the Ragozin.  So if you like doing independent research, finding novel ideas, etc., you'll probably like the Ragozin more.   

Given that you said that "you might be missing something," I think that something would be that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 is actually not so easy for Black.  If White were forced to play 4.Nf3, I suspect that it would be much more popular, but 4.a3 and 4.e3 are both very challenging.  I'm not sure of the ultimate theoretical verdict, but the Queen's Gambit Declined generally leads to less sharp play, and probably positions that are easier to handle.