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Normal Topic Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen (Read 1829 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #9 - 01/19/18 at 03:22:32
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Stigma wrote on 01/17/18 at 20:52:15:
About the 8.Be3 sidestep: There must be some reason why White often chooses 8.f4 over 8.Be3 though. Maybe he wants to play a line where the bishop stays on c1 for a while...


I think that's right.  After 8.f4 a6, White can choose a line of the Classical without an early Be3.  One idea is to move order Black after 9.Kh1 Qc7 (since 9..Nc6?! is met by 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.e5) 10.Qe1 Nc6 11.Be3 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 into a main line where the Queen is committed to c7.  In this line, Black more often plays 10..b5, when 11.Bf3 Bb7 12.e5 Ne8 13.f5 looks scary, but held up fine for Black in the first, unfinished Karpov-Kasparov match.   
  
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #8 - 01/18/18 at 02:25:07
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Speaking of the 8. Be3 stuff and old books, one could also look at Jansa's discussion in Dynamics of Chess Strategy.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #7 - 01/17/18 at 20:52:15
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LeeRoth wrote on 01/17/18 at 19:36:32:
Thanks for that Stigma.  Much appreciated.  The critical line that you give in the note -- 13.Nxe7 Qxe7 14.Bf3 -- was Unzicker's choice in two of the early games in this line against Adorjan and Vogt. 

Yes, analysis of those two games and several with 9.Kh1 take up most of Adorjan's chapter. I can't find any mention of your 13.Nxe7+ Qxe7 14.e5.

I assume you have checked corr. databases for recent games? Apart from OTB games, I have only looked at UltraCorr 3a, and it's from 2010.

About the 8.Be3 sidestep: There must be some reason why White often chooses 8.f4 over 8.Be3 though. Maybe he wants to play a line where the bishop stays on c1 for a while, or at least keep Black in the dark about it. So 8...Qb6 could still be useful if you can make it work (or even if not, as a surprise gamble or blitz weapon).

Adorjan gives a note 8.Be3 a6 9.f4 Qc7 10.Kh1 (10.a4!) 10...b5 11.Bf3 Bb7 12.e5 dxe5 13.fxe5 Nfd7 '=+'. After that 10.a4 I see that most Black players return to main lines with 10...Nc6, though some try 10...b6 11.Bf3 Bb7 and now 12.g4 is met by 12...Nc6 finally, while 12.Qe1 is met by 12...Nbd7. This is beyond my Scheveningen knowledge to be honest, but I guess Black really wants to play ...Nbd7, but after 12.g4 he has to keep that retreat square open for the f6 knight? Black has avoided the well-known tempo loss ...Bd7-c8 in any case, but I don't know if that's relevant in these specific lines.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #6 - 01/17/18 at 19:36:32
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Thanks for that Stigma.  Much appreciated.  The critical line that you give in the note -- 13.Nxe7 Qxe7 14.Bf3 -- was Unzicker's choice in two of the early games in this line against Adorjan and Vogt. 

Although 14.e5 is the choice of today's (or at least my) engines, I didn't find any games with it in the database.  Wondering if 14.e5 was something that came to be known, even though it was never actually played?  I suppose that's possible. 

Pritchett, btw, doesn't actually analyze any of these lines in his book.  He advises Black to adopt this move order so as to have a chance at 8. f4 Qb6, but notes that since its too easily side-stepped by 8.Be3, he isn't going to analyze it.  He instead refers the reader to Adorjan's book.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #5 - 01/17/18 at 18:05:58
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I looked at my copy of Adorjan's Black Is Still OK (2004), and have to correct myself: I haven't refuted the line.

I had scribbled a note indicating this corr. game improves on Adorjan's analysis with 21.Rb5!:



But Black can try to deviate, for instance with 20...Bd8!?, which looks fine (though I only looked at it briefly with Stockfish just now).

Though if nobody plays 8...Qb6 anymore, there probably is a reason. Pritchett's Scheveningen book is 11 years old already, so even if his analysis was the best possible back then, a lot may have changed in the meantime. The line you initially gave does look unpleasant for Black.
  

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LeeRoth
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #4 - 01/17/18 at 13:35:32
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The fact that 8..Qb6 isn’t played makes me suspicious.  Normally, I would assume that there is a problem with it, but Pritchett recommends it and he is usually reliable.  So I went looking, and I couldn’t find a game or any published analysis showing that 8..Qb6 was bad.  Does anyone know if there’s something like that out there?
  
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #3 - 01/16/18 at 21:55:20
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I remember taking a look at this Adorjan patent back when his book Black Is Still OK was published. He had a chapter titled The Philosopher's Stone on 8...Qb6.

I went through some corr. games with an engine running and concluded that Black was clearly worse. Might have been the same line you're giving, I'm not entirely sure.
  

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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #2 - 01/16/18 at 20:07:29
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That sequence LeeRoth gave is hilarious. Black plays six consecutive Q moves to eat the b-P. White develops QB, Q, QR, wins the B-pair, and plays a key break with e4-e5. Of course a pawn sac made on general principles will sometimes founder on exact lines. But nowadays armed with some engine prep any class player can make a master sweat over a risky pawn grab.
  
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Re: Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
Reply #1 - 01/16/18 at 19:13:20
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Can't White play 8 Be3 and f2-f4 later and simply bypass this ...Qb6 idea?
  
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LeeRoth
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Adorjan's 8..Qb6 in the Modern Scheveningen
01/16/18 at 18:56:47
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In Starting Out Sicilian Scheveningen, Pritchett recommends the move order 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be2 Be7 7.O-O O-O for Black.  The idea is to meet the immediate 8.f4 with Adorjan's 8..Qb6

Yet, 8..Qb6 hardly seems to be played anymore in practice.  According to my database, most Black players opt for 8..Nc6 or 8..a6 instead.  Does anyone know if some problem has developed with 8..Qb6 that makes it unpopular?

The engines like 9.Be3 Qxb2 10.Qd2 Qb4 11.Rab1 Qa5 12.Nd5 Qd8 13.Nxe7 Qxe7 14.e5! for White. For example:



When White has Rfd1 and c4 ideas, and Black finds it a bit difficult to finish his development. 

  
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