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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 22716 times)
MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #30 - 02/21/18 at 10:52:48
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The idea to play 6.e5 also is known after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 b5 but now 6.e5 Ng4 equalizes. So if this queenless middlegame promises something there ia another argument for 4.Bf4 and against 4.Be3.
Also 6.e5 (with 4.Bf4) b4 7.exf6 bxc3 8.Qxc3 looks good for White.
But I'm not so sure of 6.e5 Nh5! from Ansell-Noritsyn, PRO League 2017.

So my day is not completely nice yet, especially as I'm not convinced either of 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6. The well known (from Ree-Donner, NEDch Zierikzee 1967 for instance) black square strategy Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5 keeps on transposing to weak versions of the 150-Attack (Black can but is never forced to play ....Bg4).
Yesterday I've been toying a bit with 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.a4 (a novelty, so it seems) b4 8.Ne2 a5 9.Nf3 as (via transposition) Bg4 10.h3 went well in Krueger-Ruether, corr. 1996. Neither will White object 9...Nbd7 (iso 9...Bg4) 10.Bh6 O-O 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.e5, Lutz-Lorscheid, Oostende 1992 (again via transposition). And a third transpostion is 9...Nbd7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 e5, eg Gipslis-Sedov, Swidnica 1996. This might be Black's best, but I don't think it's fully equal. Notice that Bd3, the problem bishop, does something useful: controlling square c4.

If CbT wants his wish to come true I'd like him to take a look at 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.a4.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #29 - 02/21/18 at 08:27:13
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Hi.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/17/18 at 17:37:13:
Sam Collins (2004) An Attacking Repertoire for White, page 152 gives 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bg5 c6 5. Qd2 b5 6. e5!? (his punctuation) 6... dxe5 7. dxe5 Qxd2+ 8. Bxd2 Ng4 9. f4 and a few more moves of Ulibin - Himdan, Abu Dhabi 2002, reaching a "pleasant endgame". Not very attacking, and maybe not all that much for white, but no doubt black wished his pawn were still on b7.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bf4 c6 5. Qd2 b5 6. e5!? Nh5 7. Be3 dxe5 8. dxe5 Qxd2+ 9. Kxd2!? is similarly interesting.

4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.e5 Does seem like a good move. Now either 6...dxe5 7.dxe5 Qxd2+ 8.Bxd2 Nfd7 9.f4 += or 6...Nh5 7.Be3 dxe5 8.dxe5 Qxd2 9.Bxd2 += are the two most plausible lines. White's advantage should not be to large in practical play (although in a corr game I would not like to play black here - let's put it like that). Still I very much doubt black has enough good ideas for anything resembling equality. With the queens off the board he could certainly hope to play a long game with slightly worse chances though. Useful spotting this 6.e5 Smiley

gewgaw wrote on 02/17/18 at 14:43:53:
I've played the line 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3 d6 5.Qd2 b5 recently and play it without specific theory knowledge. I hesitate to play ...Bg4 and N(g)f6 and actually try to avoid it and play Bb7, Nbd7 and later Ng8-e7, Bf8 very often stays on his square and I don't wanna lose my bishop pair with ...Bg4(-xf3) or wanna allow White's Bh6. As you have more experiences, what's so bad to play this setup?

I usually go 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.f4 and 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.f4 so I can't say I am extremely well versed here. 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3 d6 5.f4 is supposed to be more dangerous than in the Pirc version although maybe black has some exact way of playing to get ok chances that I don't know about.

Have a nice day.

Edit: minor textual improvements
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #28 - 02/17/18 at 18:16:20
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Marin says he considers 4 Bg5 as the most dangerous idea, so the Collins idea is probably close, but he analyzes 5 Qd2 Nbd7 primarily. He does look at 5...b5 6 e5 b4 food for thought anyway.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #27 - 02/17/18 at 17:37:13
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Sam Collins (2004) An Attacking Repertoire for White, page 152 gives 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bg5 c6 5. Qd2 b5 6. e5!? (his punctuation) 6... dxe5 7. dxe5 Qxd2+ 8. Bxd2 Ng4 9. f4 and a few more moves of Ulibin - Himdan, Abu Dhabi 2002, reaching a "pleasant endgame". Not very attacking, and maybe not all that much for white, but no doubt black wished his pawn were still on b7.

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Bf4 c6 5. Qd2 b5 6. e5!? Nh5 7. Be3 dxe5 8. dxe5 Qxd2+ 9. Kxd2!? is similarly interesting.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #26 - 02/17/18 at 14:43:53
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MNb wrote on 02/17/18 at 12:49:45:
Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/17/18 at 06:18:34:
If there is renewed interest,

My interest regarding the Argentinean Attack and everything related never needs to be renewed - my laziness only applies to the work I (don't) do myself. But overall 5...b5 worries me more as my doubts regarding 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 remain intact.


I've played the line 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c6 4.Be3 d6 5.Qd2 b5 recently and play it without specific theory knowledge. I hesitate to play ...Bg4 and N(g)f6 and actually try to avoid it and play Bb7, Nbd7 and later Ng8-e7, Bf8 very often stays on his square and I don't wanna lose my bishop pair with ...Bg4(-xf3) or wanna allow White's Bh6. As you have more experiences, what's so bad to play this setup?
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #25 - 02/17/18 at 12:49:45
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/17/18 at 06:18:34:
If there is renewed interest,

My interest regarding the Argentinean Attack and everything related never needs to be renewed - my laziness only applies to the work I (don't) do myself. But overall 5...b5 worries me more as my doubts regarding 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 remain intact.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #24 - 02/17/18 at 06:18:34
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 02/16/18 at 08:21:32:
As a fan of the Argentinean Attack I'm afraid your suggestion doesn't make my day particularly nice. 12...Nxh7 13.Qxh7 Qg5 gives Black fine compensation as the white Queen is totally offside.
Note that Kasparov, who understood a few things about these matters, against Radjabov in 2002 preferred 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.O-O-O instead. White has won almost every single game from here, which casts more doubt on ...Nbd7. It also explains Marin's "...Bxh6 is way too cooperative". Unlike Marin I maintain though that "castling into it combined with ...Nbd7" is about as risky (ie extremely), so all in all I'd welcome my opponents playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7.

If we go towards the topic of:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (or 4.Bg5/4.Bf4) 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5
I will just note that there is a fair bit of related analysis in the 4.Bg5 megathread.

When it comes to move orders:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.Nf3 Qe7
Is probably best, in order to keep Bg4 a possibility should white keep the central tension with for example 9.0-0-0. As I recall 8...Nbd7 had some definite point over 8...Qe7 if white went 9.dxe5 but that 9.0-0-0 now led to not so fun looking positions for black so... go Kasparov!

In:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3
I gave the knight move, 9...Nbd7, briefly remembering there could be some point behind waiting with the queen. In fairness there are some small things going for 9...Qe7 as well. It should be more of a preference matter here though as compared to the position after 8.Nf3.


If there is renewed interest, some months ago I remember having a realisation somewhere when I rechecked the 7...e5 analysis I posted in the 4.Bg5 thread. Will probably get back about that. Been quit busy so haven't followed up at all. Maybe later today.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #23 - 02/16/18 at 16:50:34
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 (6.f3!?) 6...Bg7 was suggested.

A. 7.Bh6 I think is best. Other 7th moves might lead to 150-ish positions where the Bf4 is misplaced...

B. 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.O-O O-O 9.a4 b4 10.Ne2 a5 11.c3 Nbd7!? 12.cxb4 axb4 13.Qxb4 (the computer doesn't want this P, but I need to be shown) 13...c5! 14.Qd2 cxd4 15.Nexd4 Nc5 black has good play but white can probably hold on with 16.Bb5.

C. 7.h3 Nbd7 (7...e5? 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Bxe5 Nxe4 10.Qf4 +-) 8.Nf3 O-O (8...e5? 9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Bxe5 Nxe4 12.Bxe4 +-) 9.O-O e5! 10.dxe5 (the engine suggests 10.Bg5, but this would obviously label Bf4 as inaccurate) 10...Nxe5 11.Nxe5 dxe5 12.Bxe5 Nxe4 =
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #22 - 02/16/18 at 08:21:32
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I had no clue that you were talking about 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.O-O-O Qa5 and yes I think White has better than 8.Bxg7. In your own words: exchanging bishops is way too cooperative. For instance 8.O-O-O immediately scores 70% in my database (and adding 8...Qa5 hardly makes things better).  Indeed Black must have an answer ready to 8.e5 as well.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 23:09:53:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7 10.Bc4(!) Qe7 11.Ng5 Rf8 12.Nxh7

Have a nice day.


As a fan of the Argentinean Attack I'm afraid your suggestion doesn't make my day particularly nice. 12...Nxh7 13.Qxh7 Qg5 gives Black fine compensation as the white Queen is totally offside.
Note that Kasparov, who understood a few things about these matters, against Radjabov in 2002 preferred 8.Nf3 Nbd7 9.O-O-O instead. White has won almost every single game from here, which casts more doubt on ...Nbd7. It also explains Marin's "...Bxh6 is way too cooperative". Unlike Marin I maintain though that "castling into it combined with ...Nbd7" is about as risky (ie extremely), so all in all I'd welcome my opponents playing 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7.


Neither does your other suggestion make my day particularly nice:

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 23:09:53:
I'm thinking that if for example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
we would get a position similar to:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5


I opine that Bd3 is quite a lame bishop here, especially if White decides to exchange pawns on e5. There are quite some bad bishop scenarios hiding around the corner. I'd prefer to look at other moves than 7.Bh6 (in the first quoted line). I have no idea if in Black's best lines of the 150-Attack the bishop could be better on f4 than on e3. If I feel like (and that can be doubtful)  I will try to figure it out next few days. White might also consider 7.a4 or the neutral but not useless 7.h3. Play will be positional; again the question rises where the bishop is best placed, on e3 or f4.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #21 - 02/15/18 at 23:45:54
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Aren't we talking about 1e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Bf4 c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 6 Nf3 Bg7 7 Bh6 0-0 8 Bg7 Kg7 9 0-0-0 Qa5?
Or does 9 e5 make that much difference?

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #20 - 02/15/18 at 23:09:53
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Hi again.

I checked some lines this morning. Mainly 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Qa5 but also briefly 5...b5 again.

It struck me that after 5...b5 6.Bd3 there is a serious risk indeed that black will be subjected to a harmful Bh6 treatment at some point. If he goes directly 6...Bg7 though there seems to arise a position where 7.Nf3 could quite reasonably be met by 7...Bg4 and 7.Bh6, seemingly the other remaining natural move, is perhaps not totally drawback free either.

I'm thinking that if for example:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
we would get a position similar to:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5

And well... ok. This is perhaps nothing obviously super-major. The small difference of Bd3 and b5 being inserted probably means that white will have some difficulty implementing the pawn snaffling idea seen in the below sequence though and this should be welcome from black's point of view since it does appear a critical way to challenge black.
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Nbd7 10.Bc4(!) Qe7 11.Ng5 Rf8 12.Nxh7

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #19 - 02/15/18 at 20:49:52
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Still answering 7.Bh6 with Qa5 loses a piece, so it's totally unclear what line you're talking about that's supposed to come close to equal.
Compare page 1, the last two comments.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #18 - 02/15/18 at 20:33:17
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But  Marin seems to think taking the bishop on h6 is way too cooperative, and putting the queen on a5 does seem to come close to equal at least according to the live database (Chessbase).
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #17 - 02/15/18 at 12:32:01
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/15/18 at 11:24:51:
and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage.


and the "if I could go back 30 years and pick another opening" adage  Roll Eyes
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #16 - 02/15/18 at 11:24:51
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Hello.

mn wrote on 02/15/18 at 10:22:17:
6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.

Maybe there is also the "let's keep Bg4 a possibility" doctrine to take into account though...

and the ever so true "the Pirc is really hard to play" adage. Grin

Have a nice day.
  
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