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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 22848 times)
Stigma
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #45 - 07/25/18 at 14:36:59
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This may reflect a view among many GMs that setups with h3 and Nf3 are often a risk-free way to a slight advantage - something that can be played if you're surprised by the Pirc (as will often be the case on high levels) and don't have anything sharp prepared.

I remember looking at the move order 4.Be3 [any] 5.h3 in the database a few years ago. While I was most interested in sharp lines like Jansa and Sveshnikov's 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4 and the Archbishop Attack with 6.g4!?, there were also plenty of GMs who played the solid 6.Nf3, reverting to an h3 Classical after Black has committed to a certain setup (with ...c6 or ...a6, and maybe ...Nbd7). Black certainly needs to think through how not to get move ordered by 4.Be3/5.h3/6.Nf3 into a line he didn't intend to play, in addition to the other move order issues presented by 4.Be3.

Though in this case (with Bf4), it may well be that playing it without Nf3 is simply stronger.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #44 - 07/25/18 at 14:18:35
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 07/24/18 at 17:09:54:
Hello.

White could have done better, for sure.

I'm mostly curious why MVL went 5.Nf3 instead of 5.Qd2 though. It may indicate he thinks there is some precise reason why moving the knight should be better and that would be truly interesting. More probably though this is not something he studied to deeply.

Very nice play by Carlsen needs to be said as well. Highly worth going through the entire game.

Have a nice day.


He studied it from Black side - coming from 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 etc.

And concluded White had a slight advantage.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #43 - 07/24/18 at 17:09:54
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Hello.

White could have done better, for sure.

I'm mostly curious why MVL went 5.Nf3 instead of 5.Qd2 though. It may indicate he thinks there is some precise reason why moving the knight should be better and that would be truly interesting. More probably though this is not something he studied to deeply.

Very nice play by Carlsen needs to be said as well. Highly worth going through the entire game.

Have a nice day.
  
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Bibs
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #42 - 07/24/18 at 10:54:09
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That was limp stuff from MVL. Disappointing from white.
I dont see how h3, Qd2 and e5 are supposed to fit together.
That said Im an FM duffer, not 2800.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #41 - 07/24/18 at 09:40:11
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Thanks for the link

Carlsen beating MVL with the Pirc!

Smiley

  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #40 - 07/23/18 at 12:35:35
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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #39 - 03/18/18 at 04:34:21
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/17/18 at 21:03:36:
I had to look a bit to find it Smiley but check reply #6 in the 4.Be3 mega-thread for a brief rundown of this long castling idea in the 6.Bh6 with 7...Qa5 line.


Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/17/18 at 21:03:36:
Much pleasure looking at this.


Thanks for your efforts, and for MNb Minotauring for the White side

For those lost in the maze

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1509173142/6#6

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #38 - 03/17/18 at 21:03:36
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Hi.

I had to look a bit to find it Smiley but check reply #6 in the 4.Be3 mega-thread for a brief rundown of this long castling idea in the 6.Bh6 with 7...Qa5 line. I'd quote or repost here though I'm on a mobile just now so not today. Anyway a not so far fetched vision of the future would have it as at the very least a serious alternative to the more standard queenless middlegame line. Maybe more as it becomes widely known.

Going back to the other move 7...e5 (and the 11...a5 line). I think 12.a3 may have at least a small drawback compared to 12.a4. This is that after 12.a3 Be6!? (which was probably not so good a move earlier e.g. 11...Be6 12.Ng5 Bxb3 13.axb3 as covered briefly by Shaw) black doesn't really seem like he is losing a pawn. Maybe he can even tough it out somehow; even if white still exerts annoying pressure. This is more of a thought than anything else but ok. Better write it down.

Much pleasure looking at this.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #37 - 03/17/18 at 15:26:49
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Sorry, doesn't look OK.
  

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JEH
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #36 - 03/17/18 at 10:40:10
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MNb wrote on 03/17/18 at 08:52:11:
JEH wrote on 03/17/18 at 07:52:09:
Therefore I'd prefer 7. ...Qa5 to 7. ...e5. I like the Queen here, and b5 and e5 can await their turn.

Somewhere in that long Bg5 thread CbT analyzed 7...Qa5 8.O-O-O combined with a well timed e4-e5. Play is very complicated, but it doesn't look for Black.


Doesn't look OK or doesn't look bad? Sad

For future Pirc players lost in the maze, here's a link to the other thread...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1466412326/30#30

Maybe the line where Be3/Bf4/Bg5 needs to be a seperate thread so the nuance of the Bishop placement can be discussed seperately.

I'm also thinking there will need to be a follow up to Pirc Hospital! called Pirc Labyrinth!



If you look carefully, you can see me lost in there just past the second wall, but I'd only recommend the very brave or the very foolish follow me Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #35 - 03/17/18 at 08:52:11
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MartinC wrote on 03/16/18 at 21:05:57:
I'd definitely want to analyse taking e4 as black on move 13 a fair bit too. Not obvious (to me?) how it gets punished.

12.a4 b4 13.Ne2 Nxe4 14.Qg7 Rf8 15.Nxe5 f6 16.Qxe7+ Kxe7 17.Nc4 with quite a lead in development.

JEH wrote on 03/17/18 at 07:52:09:
Therefore I'd prefer 7. ...Qa5 to 7. ...e5. I like the Queen here, and b5 and e5 can await their turn.

Somewhere in that long Bg5 thread CbT analyzed 7...Qa5 8.O-O-O combined with a well timed e4-e5. Play is very complicated, but it doesn't look for Black.
At the moment it seems to me that 7...e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 Nbd7 (iso b5) and only after 11.O-O taking the initiative on the queen's wing with b5. Still 12.Bb3 a5 13.a4 b4 14.Nb1 looks pleasant for White at first sight.
That urges once again the question: should White play 4.Be3, 4.Bf4 or 4.Bg5 ?
As for Black it perhaps pays off to study Dangerous Weapons chapters 1 and 2 carefully (4...Bg7 5.Qd2 O-O).

Of course those who combine the Pirc with the KID should strongly consider 1.e4 g6.
« Last Edit: 03/17/18 at 10:24:59 by MNb »  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #34 - 03/17/18 at 07:52:09
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Carrying many wounds of battle from playing the Pirc, I'm very mindful of playing moves like b5 and e5 too early. They are crucial to some of Black's plans, but timing is everything.

Therefore I'd prefer 7. ...Qa5 to 7. ...e5. I like the Queen here, and b5 and e5 can await their turn.

Has this been covered in any of the threads so far? It's also Kornev's practical repertoire suggestion.

I think we might need a follow up to Pirc Alert! called Pirc Hospital!

  

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Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #33 - 03/16/18 at 21:05:57
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Why is 12 a4 obvious? Leaving e4 en prise like that isn't something people will do without thinking quite hard about it.

I'd definitely want to analyse taking e4 as black on move 13 a fair bit too. Not obvious (to me?) how it gets punished.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #32 - 03/16/18 at 14:42:08
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Hello.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 02/17/18 at 06:18:34:
If there is renewed interest, some months ago I remember having a realisation somewhere when I rechecked the 7...e5 analysis I posted in the 4.Bg5 thread. Will probably get back about that. Been quit busy so haven't followed up at all.


To follow up on this. What I realised was that in the long though probably important sequence:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bg5 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 e5 8.dxe5 dxe5 9.Nf3 Qe7 10.Bc4 b5 11.Bb3 a5!? 12.a4 b4 13.Nb1 Nbd7 14.Nbd2 Ba6 15.Ng5 Rf8 16.Nxh7 Nxh7 17.Qxh7 Qg5(!)
May be a better try compared to the 17...0-0-0 I gave just over a year ago in the 4.Bg5 megathread (reply #67).

The basic problem with castling long is that after 18.Qh3 black does seem forced to go Kc7, which amounts to a tempo likely not spent so well. With 17...Qg5 black just places his pieces actively and with some accuracy he seems to be able to get positions that look defensible. Here is a PGN with some plausible lines of play:



A problem is that 12.a3 still looks good. With some luck white players will go for the more obvious (to my eyes) 12.a4 though and practically I think it could be worthwhile to check both lines. Also. If black's cause after 12.a3 is somehow strengthened I don't see why this entire line wouldn't be simply playable. This would be a major thing as well because this 6.Bh6 line seems so, relatively speaking, hard to combat for black.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #31 - 02/23/18 at 15:20:55
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Hi.

MNb wrote on 02/21/18 at 10:52:48:
So my day is not completely nice yet, especially as I'm not convinced either of 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.Bh6. The well known (from Ree-Donner, NEDch Zierikzee 1967 for instance) black square strategy Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5 keeps on transposing to weak versions of the 150-Attack (Black can but is never forced to play ....Bg4).
Yesterday I've been toying a bit with 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.a4 (a novelty, so it seems) b4 8.Ne2 a5 9.Nf3 as (via transposition) Bg4 10.h3 went well in Krueger-Ruether, corr. 1996. Neither will White object 9...Nbd7 (iso 9...Bg4) 10.Bh6 O-O 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.e5, Lutz-Lorscheid, Oostende 1992 (again via transposition). And a third transpostion is 9...Nbd7 10.Bh6 Bxh6 11.Qxh6 e5, eg Gipslis-Sedov, Swidnica 1996. This might be Black's best, but I don't think it's fully equal. Notice that Bd3, the problem bishop, does something useful: controlling square c4.

Checking in after some busy days. I can say that I did not find anything that looked like a clean equaliser against this 7.a4. While black gets somewhat ok looking positions they rarely seem fully equal. The white queen is a positional asset on h6 in many lines, possibly helping to set up an attack and also preventing castling. Also worth mentioning is that if the queen stays on d2 it attacks b4, which may draw the non-developing a5 from black.

In terms of thought out responses I came up with the idea of letting b4 hang for a move or two (or more, although who's keeping count anyway) by going with the natural looking move of castling followed by a quick Bg4. Also I think there is point to castling before playing a7-a5 and I came up with a line of play trying to demonstrate how this could be. If black is looking for quick equality this could be it; although there is some concreteness to be navigated. To the first line though:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 b5 6.Bd3 Bg7 7.a4 b4 8.Nce2 0-0
Possibly most accurate. Now 9.Qxb4 is actually not so good. Instead...
9.Nf3
9.Bh6 Bxh6 10.Qxh6 e5 is different compared to if the knight had already moved to f3. Very playable for white, at the same time it doesn't look so threatening to me.
9...Bg4!? 10.Bh6!? Nbd7
Natural development from black obviously; made possible by the ordering of his moves. But wait...
11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.Qxb4
A pawn drops! Now does black get compensation? I am not exactly sure but at the same time after a few natural moves it isn't going to look so bad for black. I mainly checked 12...Bxf3 now, which depending on how you see it deviates a bit from being a natural move. Crucially though it seems to work out OK.
To note earlier is that 10.Qxb4 is actually a real possibility as well. Keeping the g7 bishop alive makes for different positions entirely though.

Some analysis:


Nice day.
  
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