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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 21623 times)
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #15 - 02/15/18 at 10:22:17
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6...Qa5 seems more consistent with the whole "leave the Bishop on f8 for as long as possible" philosophy.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #14 - 02/15/18 at 10:07:41
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Hey.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/07/18 at 05:08:12:
Found the game, but my memory was not perfect. I thought it would be the game Stutz - Wolff, but it was a later game where Wolff tried it as white.

Thank you for posting. Full games are always interesting.


Pawnpusher wrote on 02/11/18 at 21:15:09:
Marin likes 4..c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 then 6 Nf3 and finally Bg7 his analysis looks at 7 0-0-0 Qa5 then eiher 8 Kb1 and 8 e5.
MNb wrote on 02/12/18 at 07:21:39:
Does Marin look at 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 as well? This looks like a favourable (for White) version of the 150 Attack. Plus White can play 6.O-O-O immediately, as ...e5 just loses.

More about 4.Bf4 in this thread:


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1463055561/45#45

7.Bh6 should be the move indeed since in terms of move sequences both:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 dxe5 10.dxe5 Ng4 11.0-0-0
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 Qa5 9.0-0-0
Look at least slightly better for white.

More solid (and probably better) ways of playing:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 0-0 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.e5 Nd5
and
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 e5
Are also not really easy for black.


Have a nice day.

  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #13 - 02/15/18 at 06:58:12
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I doubt if the results after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Qa5? 8.Bxg7 are about 50%. Instead I rather bet you searched for another position.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #12 - 02/15/18 at 02:14:30
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When I look at the my live database more people aren't playing Bxh6 isn't that way too cooperative? After Qa5 the numbers are much different about 50%.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #11 - 02/14/18 at 06:57:09
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Still, 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Nbd7 8.Nf3 is an important weapon for White and 4.Bf4 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 Bxh6 8.Qxh6 just transposes. Given the fact that White wins more than half of the games the expression "a lot less force" sounds a bit peculiar, if not ironic to me. Castling into it is not without any danger either.
Btw positional players may argue that 7.h3 (iso 7.Bh6) is a good version of the Classical.
If this is the best Black can do the conclusion is that 4.Bf4 is superior to 4.Be3. Those who'd rather play 4.Be3 c6 as Black won't be happy.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #10 - 02/13/18 at 20:38:53
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edit that should of course say Bh6 until the 9th or 10th move.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #9 - 02/13/18 at 20:37:20
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He discussed 6 0-0-0 and gives Qa5 7e5 dxe5 8 dxe5 Nh5 and then says e6 but that white just gets enough for the pawn. He states that after Nf3 Bh6 has a lot less force, so really he believes there is no hurry for Bh6. both of the lines he covers don't have Bh5 until the 9th or 10th move. He also says this can happen from the 4 Be3 lines too, so there may be more transpositions.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #8 - 02/12/18 at 07:21:39
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Does Marin look at 4...c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7 7.Bh6 as well? This looks like a favourable (for White) version of the 150 Attack. Plus White can play 6.O-O-O immediately, as ...e5 just loses.

More about 4.Bf4 in this thread:


http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1463055561/45#45



  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #7 - 02/11/18 at 21:15:09
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Marin likes 4..c6 5 Qd2 Nbd7 then 6 Nf3 and finally Bg7 his analysis looks at 7 0-0-0 Qa5 then eiher 8 Kb1 and 8 e5.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #6 - 02/07/18 at 17:53:32
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Stigma wrote on 02/07/18 at 14:21:49:
[quote author=13103C5E0 link=1517943784/4#4 date=1518004404] So if White combines 4.Bf4 against the Pirc with, say, 4.f4, 4.g3 or some form of Classical against the Modern, he in effect has to know two full repertoires against the Pirc


Yeah, but that's nothing special. It doesn't make much sense to combine the QDG against 1.d4 with the KID against 1.c4 either. And there are many more examples.

Though I haven known someone who as Black combined the Najdorf (and not with ...Nc6) with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6, allowing the Richter Rauser.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #5 - 02/07/18 at 14:21:49
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MNb wrote on 02/07/18 at 11:53:24:
No matter what you play against the Pirc, as long as Black refuses to play ...Nf6 you need something independent.

That's true, but Black Modern players have the option of transposing to the Pirc against many White tries. So if White combines 4.Bf4 against the Pirc with, say, 4.f4, 4.g3 or some form of Classical against the Modern, he in effect has to know two full repertoires against the Pirc (unless he's bluffing).

Therefore some other choices against the Modern are more natural partners for the 4.Bf4 Pirc:

- 4.Be3, since if Black transposes the Pirc, he has made the concession of losing the 4.Be3 c6 and 4.Be3 a6 options where he delays ...Bg7

- 3.c3 intending Bd3, since if Black continues in Pirc style, he has lost Pirc-only options like 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 (a main line) and the more offbeat 3...c5 and 3...d5

- 3.c4 (if happy with a KID) and 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bc4 (as in Shaw's 1.e4 book), since these lines are independent of the Pirc

P.S.: I have just accepted an ordinary chessplayer's underlying assumption that 4.Bf4 is no good against the Modern. I guess some ...Nc6 line or "Tiger's Modern" style must be fine for Black.
  

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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #4 - 02/07/18 at 11:53:24
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1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nf6 6.Bh6 will transpose.
No matter what you play against the Pirc, as long as Black refuses to play ...Nf6 you need something independent.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #3 - 02/07/18 at 05:25:27
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One thing I never liked about 4.Bf4 was the need for a different system if black adopted the Modern move order.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #2 - 02/07/18 at 05:08:12
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Found the game, but my memory was not perfect. I thought it would be the game Stutz - Wolff, but it was a later game where Wolff tried it as white.

Wolff, Patrick (not yet IM) vs Ilijc, Milan (IM)
New York Open 1985 (9 rounds swiss) round 1
notes by Wolff Chess Horizons (1985.06-07) pg.23,52

1.e4 d6
2.d4 Nf6
3.Nc3 g6
4.Bf4!? Bg7
5.Qd2 h6?!

( 5...Nc6 6.d5
( 6.O-O-O!? with the idea 6... O-O 7.Bh6 e5 8.Bxg7 Kxg7 9.Nge2 += )
6... e5! 7.dxe6! Bxe6 8.O-O-O += {space} )
( 5...O-O 6.Bh6 )
6.f3?!
( 6.Be2! {Chris Chase} (note by an ordinary chessplayer: Chase was NM at that time and, IIRC, editor of Chess Horizons. Chase frequently played the Pirc/Modern with black, and still does.)
6... c6 7.O-O-O b5
( 7...Qa5 8.e5 dxe5
( 8...Nd5 9.Nxd5 Qxd5 10.c4 Qe6 11.d5 +/- )
9.dxe5 Ng4 10.Bxg4 Bxg4 11.Nf3 Na6
( 11...Nd7 12.h3! )
12.h3 Bxf3
( 12...Be6 13.Nd4!? Bxa2 14.Nxc6 bxc6 15.Qd7+ Kf8 16.Nxa2 Bxe5 17.Bxe5 Qxe5 18.Qxc6 Nc7 19.Rhe1 +/- )
13.gxf3 Nc5 += unclear (sic) )
8.e5 dxe5
( 8...b4? 9.exf6 bxc3 10.Qxc3 Bxf6 11.Be5! Be6!?
( 11...Bxe5 12.dxe5 d5 13.e6! )
( 11...Bg5+ 12.f4 dxe5 13.fxg5 e4 14.d5 )
12.Bxf6 exf6 13.Bf3 d5 14.Ne2 )
9.dxe5 Qxd2+ 10.Rxd2 Ng4 11.Bf3! a6
( 11...Bxe5 12.Bxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxb5 Na6 += )
12.Re2 h5 13.Nh3!? +/- )
6... c6
7.g4?!

( 7.Bd3 {better} )
( 7.Bc4 {better} )
7... Qa5
8.Bc4 Nbd7
9.O-O-O b5
10.Bb3 b4

( 10...c5!? )
11.Nce2 Ba6
12.Kb1 h5!
13.g5

( 13.gxh5!? Nxh5 14.Bg5 Ndf6 = 15.Nh3 O-O
( 15...c5?! 16.dxc5 Qxc5 17.Ba4+ Bb5? 18.Be3 Qc6 19.Nd4 )
16.Rdg1 unclear )
13... Nh7
14.Be3

( 14.e5!? d5!
( 14...dxe5? 15.dxe5 Nxe5 16.Bxe5 Bxe5
( 16...Qxe5?? 17.Qd7+ Kf8 18.Qd8+ Rxd8 19.Rxd8# )
17.Qd7+ Kf8 18.f4 Bc7
( 18...Bd6?? 19.Rxd6!? )
( 18...Bg7 19.Nd4 )
19.Qd4 Rg8 20.Qe4 )
15.e6 fxe6 16.Qe3 Nhf8 17.Nh3 unclear )
14... O-O
15.f4 e6!?
16.a3?

( 16.d5! cxd5
( 16...exd5 17.f5 Be5 18.Nf3 {initiative} 18... dxe4?
( 18...Bc4 19.exd5 cxd5 20.Ned4 unclear )
19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.fxg6 Nxg6 21.Qxd6 )
17.exd5 Nc5 18.Nf3 Nxb3 19.axb3 Qxd5 20.Qxd5 exd5 21.Ng3 Rfe8 22.Bd4 = )
( 16.Nf3 c5! 17.dxc5 dxc5 18.Qe1 Qc7 -+ )
16... Rab8 17.axb4 Rxb4 18.f5 Re8! 19.fxg6 fxg6 20.Nc1 Qb5! 21.Na2 Rxb3 22.cxb3 Qxb3 23.Ne2 Rb8 24.Nec1 Qb7 25.Qc2?! Nb6 26.b4 Nc4 27.Qb3 c5 28.dxc5 Qxe4+ 0-1

  

wolff-ilijc-1985.pgn ( 2 KB | 85 Downloads )
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #1 - 02/06/18 at 19:57:26
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For history, Carl Stutz (NM from USA) was playing 4.Bf4 regularly in the 1980s. I have lost touch with him, for all I know he is still playing it today. Back then Stutz had a game annotated in Chess Horizons, and Patrick Wolff concluded 4.Bf4 was a very interesting line. Wolff frequently played the Pirc before he became a GM. Before Wolff's opinion appeared in print, I was emboldened by the idea that 4.Bf4 was "inferior", and tried the Pirc against Stutz, losing rather quickly to a stereotyped mating attack. I would dig up my game score except there is nothing to be learned from it -- unlike Wolff, I almost never played the Pirc. Perhaps I can find the Chess Horizons game in my personal database.

Edited:
Fixed typo dig for did.
  
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