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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders (Read 15602 times)
Bibs
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #104 - 05/21/19 at 11:26:12
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Not a sausage here either, alas. Cannot download. Using Chrome.

Much respect for all the work on this by the way CbT. It has been really interesting to follow, and I am looking forward to seeing in CB, upon downloading.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #103 - 05/21/19 at 05:35:32
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With firefox I got nothing. Now on ios I get "Safari cannot open the page because the address is invalid."

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?action=downloadfile;file=test%5F0...

Should there be a semi-colon? I would expect ampersand.

Edited:
Ampersand gives the same "address is invalid" message.
  
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mn
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #102 - 05/21/19 at 05:17:35
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test
  

test_001.pgn ( 0 KB | 10 Downloads )
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #101 - 05/21/19 at 04:46:05
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Maybe we have broken the internet Huh
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #100 - 05/21/19 at 04:19:28
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/21/19 at 03:53:40:
I click on pgn link, but nothing happens. Is it site glitch ¿

Same here. I also clicked on one of my own attachments, and didn't get anything. But I notice the count of Downloads was incremented (after browser refresh).
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #99 - 05/21/19 at 03:53:40
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I click on pgn link, but nothing happens. Is it site glitch ¿
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #98 - 05/20/19 at 06:37:30
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And part 2 Cool
  

4_Bf4_rep_Part_2.pgn ( 34 KB | 37 Downloads )
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #97 - 05/20/19 at 06:37:01
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Hi.

Finally I want to share with you an analysis file. I have been building and using it while doing these summary posts on various 4.Bf4 lines. Going through it (just browsing and trying to spot small errors) was easily a 10min job and I didn't find anything in particular to fix so it was mostly scrolling. There are bound to be small glitches though and of course any and all analysis given can definitely be both tested and challenged.

It all clocked in at 70KB. I had to split it for this reason - There was a file size limit of 50KB. Choosing how was not as enjoyable as splitting a cake. Everything except:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 can be found in part 1 and part 2 is exclusively this line.

Various imperfections aside I feel that with the posting of this very big file anyone aiming to play 4.Bf4 as a repertoire choice would have good possibilities to do so.

Have a nice day.
  

4_Bf4_rep_Part_1.pgn ( 37 KB | 63 Downloads )
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #96 - 05/17/19 at 08:06:14
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Hi.

RdC wrote on 05/16/19 at 06:47:50:
The London system with 2. Bf4 has become very popular. One of the ideas being the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6. So the position from the Pirc after 4 Bf4 will have had recent scrutiny at GM level.

Yes. I can see. London players probably need to book up some more on the Pirc though to be honest. Smiley

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/16/19 at 08:53:47:
It was definitely a joke, given my name. Лев никогда не крадет Cheesy

Don't speak Russian sadly, even though I have some decent (but fast dimming) understanding of the cyrillic alphabet.

"Lions never steal". Right?
I suppose they are just successful at having other animals voluntarily hand over downed prey in some situations. Wink

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/16/19 at 08:53:47:
All of these analyses look like more than I ever saw in other Pirc book. Have you consulted Nunn's Complete Pirc, Wigus, Marin and all others ¿ If you could challenge all of their assessments, that would be a thing. But a lot of work.

I have the books mentioned but don't really look in them with the view to challenge assessment after assessment. Neither Vigus (limited by his book format - essentially he is rarely trying to fix every single possible crack in the lines he favours) or Nunn (book to old) would feel right to do this against actively in my opinion.

On the other hand. This very 4.Bf4 repertoire goes into a Marin line at one point and some time ago I also mentioned a possible improvement in his 4.Be3 c6 line. Also at some point I mentioned I was displeased with Kornev's 4.Bg5 lines. So there are moments when I think the last word has not been said and things like this happen. Checking for such lines is not really rewarding for me in practical play though. I already score very well against the Pirc/Modern Grin Edit: and with it Grin Grin (even though less well in comparison). At my level possible tests as black are also quite rare and mostly in the already very forcing lines.

Have a nice day.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #95 - 05/16/19 at 08:53:47
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 05/16/19 at 07:35:26:
If ever I publish a repertoire book though... You will now get a very nice comment in the introduction  Grin "Some detractors positively salivated over the possibility of making a quick buck from writing their own repertoire book; aimed, of course, solely at bashing this one. Such agregious capitalism and blatant anti-comradeship amongst chess players brings a tear or two to my eyes. Saddest of all though would have been the communist leaders of a bygone era, who tried and (as can be evidenced) failed in ridding the world of the greedy opportunism on display. Cheesy


It was definitely a joke, given my name. Лев никогда не крадет Cheesy

All of these analyses look like more than I ever saw in other Pirc book. Have you consulted Nunn's Complete Pirc, Wigus, Marin and all others ¿ If you could challenge all of their assessments, that would be a thing. But a lot of work.

Having said this I do not like encourage too much. After all, I play Pirc from Black's side  Cheesy
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #94 - 05/16/19 at 07:35:26
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Hi.

Well. I've considered changing my current business plan. This can be said without much of a blink. Grin

Write books is not such an obvious phase 2 for me though mainly because a) I'm a weak player compared to most authors and b) because the only subjects that would make sense would be quite niche Pirc/Modern or some other comparativly non standard opening (non-Nf6 KID comes to mind). This will be a hard sell (and a lot of work).

Instead I have more seriously considered making something in pamphlet form (like a self published PDF). On the repertoire I just proposed for example; although there would have to be time for formatting, editing, improving the text etc. In short a fair bit of work. Maybe someday though.

If ever I publish a repertoire book though... You will now get a very nice comment in the introduction  Grin "Some detractors positively salivated over the possibility of making a quick buck from writing their own repertoire book; aimed, of course, solely at bashing this one. Such egregious capitalism and blatant anti-comradeship amongst chess players brings a tear or two to my eyes. Saddest of all though would have been the communist leaders of a bygone era, who tried and (as can be evidenced) failed in ridding the world of the greedy opportunism on display. Cheesy

Have a nice day.

Edit: Corrected complete misspelling.
« Last Edit: 05/17/19 at 07:18:10 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #93 - 05/16/19 at 06:47:50
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 05/16/19 at 02:01:50:
Then it will be possible to deduce exactly how far off the mark I am in my promotion of 4.Bf4 as a serious try for advantage



The London system with 2. Bf4 has become very popular. One of the ideas being the line 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bf4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. e4 d6. So the position from the Pirc after 4 Bf4 will have had recent scrutiny at GM level.
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #92 - 05/16/19 at 03:51:17
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Have you thought of writing repertoire book ¿ Your analyses are fairly damned detailed.

Then I could publish a Pirc book for Black against your recommendations.

That last part was joke by the way  Cheesy
  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #91 - 05/16/19 at 02:01:50
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Hi.

I really need to go through it before posting, but in the near future I intend to post an analysis file. Then it will be possible to deduce exactly how far off the mark I am in my promotion of 4.Bf4 as a serious try for advantage.

Have a nice day.

  
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Re: Pirc 4 Bf4: Best Lines/Move Orders
Reply #90 - 05/14/19 at 04:43:24
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4.Bf4 Analysis - Part 6: c6 compactness with early Qa5

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Bf4 c6
As in 4.Be3 and 4.Bg5 this 4...c6 move can be played in order to reach quite different, yet very interesting variations compared to the immediate Bg7. At first it seemed to me (and certain author GMs who reach this by transposition) like the way for black to play in order to reach something reasonable was:
5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.Nf3 Bg7
Where I analysed the reply 7.Bh6 earlier and thought white ends up with chances to press. That's it then? The way I recommend white to play throughout the 4.Bf4 repertoire is to play Bh6 at the right moment and try to get a favourable forcing of the play against most black attempts. Well... chess appears not so easy. That is because there is at least one line, pointed out by MNb, after 4.Bf4 c6 that doesn't really allow a favourable early Bh6. Checking this line I also think I found another move; which seems very solid for black.
5.Qd2 Qa5 6.Nf3
6.a3!? seems quite decent for those who want an easy life. The idea is to postpone Nf3 for one more move in order to keep maximum flexibility and make Bg4 a non-move for black. I covered some other moves in earlier posts although the main problem I found is that black can play 6...e5. A reasonable couple of lines after that would look like:

6.a3!? e5 7.Be3!
Meek-looking but also the only challenging move. I checked some others when I still had hopes for this to work well for white.
7...Nbd7
7...Bg7 8.dxe5!? dxe5 9.Bc4 O-O 10.Nf3 (+/=) I think looks so harmonius for white that it should be slightly better for him.
8.Nf3 Bg7 9.dxe5!? Nxe5
9...dxe5 10.Bc4 O-O 11.O-O Ng4?! Otherwise white just goes h3 and again appears to have harmony in his position, but lunging rarely helps. 12.Bg5 Re8 13.h3 Ngf6 14.Be3!? (+/ = )
10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.Bc4 O-O 12.O-O-O b5 13.Ba2 Re8 14.Kb1 Qc7 15.f3 Be6 16.g4 (+/ = )
White is more comfortable albeit without having made a serious breach of black's position yet. If he is content with something like this 6.a3 is probably simpler than what I am about to recommend after 6.Nf3.

6...Bg4!?
My attempt at giving black a playable position. Even if it isn't really a sexy move the c8 bishop is not so fundamentally important and exchanging it works towards making black's position easier to play and understand. A nice side-effect is also that kingside attacks are not likely to be very dangerous (immediately at least!) without the soon to be eliminated knight's participation. The downside is the loss of the bishop for knight, which tends to mean black limits the types of positions he can go for strategically. With such a flexible pawn structure  bishops tend to be at least a little bit stronger than knights limiting black somewhat.

6...Bg7
After this white has some kind of positional conondrum to solve. Per formula he would like to play Bh6, but this is unworkable because Nxe4 will happen. If not that he would probably like to develop somehow and start to put pressure on black. How is that development and pressure going to look though? Black will take steps towards equalising the position if given time and just getting pieces out is probably not going to be enough to gain much of an advantage for white. He needs to find near enough optimal spots for his pieces but especially where to put the light squared bishop is not so clear.

I have a move suggestion connected to an idea that I will propose below. It seems decent but is also not the easist way of playing. Still. Checking alternatives convinced me it is not so easy to demonstrate advantage anywhere. Because of this I don't think white should principally be to unwilling to enter into slightly more complex lines. I am talking about the following; where black should have a hard time deviating without doing something very non-standard:
7.Bc4!? b5 8.Bd3 Bg4 9.e5 Nh5 10.exd6 Bxf3 11.gxf3 Nxf4 12.Qxf4 e5! 13.dxe5
Now this could well be just unclear, yet I think white may get chances with the following:
13...O-O 14.Qe4!? b4 15.Nb5! Nd7 16.Nc7 Nc5
16...Nxe5 17.Nxa8 Nxd3+ 18.cxd3 Transposes to 16...Nc5.
16...Bxe5 17.Nxa8 Bxb2 18.O-O Qg5+ 19.Kh1 Bxa1 20.Rxa1 Rxa8 21.Qxc6 Rd8 22.Rd1 (+/ = ) White has an extra pawn for the moment and seems at least marginally better.
17.Qe3 Bxe5
17...b3+ 18.Ke2 Nxd3 19.Nxa8 Nxe5 20.axb3 Qb5+ 21.c4 Nxc4 22.Nc7 Qb8 23.bxc4 Qxb2+ 24.Kf1 Qxa1+ 25.Kg2 Qd4 26.c5 (+/ = ) White is better.
17...Nxd3+ 18.cxd3 Qxe5 19.Qxe5 Bxe5 20.d4 Bxd4 21.Nxa8 Rxa8 22.O-O-O c5 23.Rxd4 cxd4 (+/ - ) White gets a pleasant endgame.
18.Nxa8 Nxd3+ 19.cxd3 Bxb2 20.O-O Rxa8 21.Rae1 Qd5 (+/ = ) (Diagram)
The exchange up side should have at least some advantage; with so many pawn islands exact play is still very important though.

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7.e5!? Nh5
Critical. The idea is to stabilise the position with exchanges. Otherwise:

7...Nd5 8.Nxd5 Qxd2+ 9.Nxd2 cxd5 10.exd6 exd6 11.f3 Be6 12.Kf2 (+/ = ) to (+/ - ) White is definitely more comfortable.
7...dxe5 8.Nxe5 Be6 9.Bc4 Bxc4 10.Nxc4 Qa6 11.Qe2 Bg7 12.Nd6+ Kf8 13.Qxa6 bxa6 14.Nde4!? Nd5 15.Be5!? Nd7 16.Bxg7+ Kxg7 17.O-O-O (+/ - ) White just has a decent plus.
7...Bxf3?! 8.exf6 Bg4 9.fxe7 Bxe7 10.d5!? (+/ - ) White has a positional advantage.

8.exd6 Bxf3 9.gxf3 Nxf4 10.Qxf4 e6 11.O-O-O Qf5 (Diagram)

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This is not at all easy to crack but we'll try. There is another line as well however:

11...Nd7!? 12.Kb1 Qf5 13.Qg3 O-O-O!
Playing to capture d6 at some point and clarify the position a bit.
14.Ne4!? Nf6 15.Bd3 Nh5 16.Qe5 Qxe5
16...Bg7 17.Qc5 Qxc5 18.dxc5 (+/ = ) This may not be quite as bad that one could assume for black but white is better.
17.dxe5 Bg7 18.Rhe1 Bxe5 19.Ng5 Rd7 20.Rxe5 f6 21.Bc4 fxe5 22.Bxe6 Rf8 23.Nxh7 Rxf3 24.Ng5 Rf8 25.c4 b6 26.Rd3 (+/ = ) White has initiative.

12.Qg3 Bh6+ 13.Kb1 Bf4 14.Qh4 g5

14...Bxd6 15.d5!
Seems complicated but probably better for white. See analysis file.

15.Qg4 Qxg4 16.fxg4 h5! 17.gxh5 Rxh5 (Diagram)
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Proving something here seems hard. I will suggest just playing to gain space. Conceivably some deep analysis might yield a better plan somewhere but black is essentially not cracking in the short term.
18.Ne4 Nd7 19.c4
19.Be2 Rh6 20.h4 gxh4 21.Rdg1 f5 22.Rg8+ Nf8 23.Bh5+ Rxh5 24.Nf6+ Kf7 25.Nxh5 Kxg8 26.Nxf4 Rd8 27.c3 Rxd6 28.Rxh4 (=) to (+/ = ) Black should survive this.
19...O-O-O 20.c5 Rdh8 21.Rg1!?
It seems like white has to resort to something slow like this. The significant downside being that the h-pawn disappears.
21...Rxh2 22.b4 (∞) to (+/ = ) (Diagram)
This seems closer to unclear compared to a position where white has advantage. White has some positional factors to work with though and if anybody is better it is him.

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Enjoy.
  
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