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Normal Topic Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ? (Read 3313 times)
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #9 - 03/28/18 at 16:15:34
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Black might want to avoid the Catalan.

1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3g3 c5!?
1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 b6 or 3...c5!? or 3...Bg4ch
  
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mn
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #8 - 03/22/18 at 19:27:32
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If White wants a harmless Carlsbad, he can still go 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 d5 4 cxd5 though, right?
  
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tracke
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #7 - 03/22/18 at 19:04:50
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Maybe Black wants to play ...Nxd5 (and Semi-Tarrasch) against QGE and avoids 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 cd ed and Karlsbad structure?!

tracke Smiley
  
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #6 - 03/22/18 at 18:29:27
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I would think that avoiding the Trompowsky would be a bigger deal than avoiding the 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 route to a London System, but your mileage may vary.  If you aren't worried about the Tromp then I would play 1. Nf6 simply because there isn't a lot else to be concerned about with that move order.

I guess there is one more subtlety:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 and 5. Bg5.  If you want to play ...Be7 before ...Nf6 in the QGD obviously 1. ...Nf6 is not the way to go!
  
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #5 - 02/16/18 at 01:11:16
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It's not obvious to me that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 (which 1.d4 d5 avoids) is more of a problem for Black than 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 (which 1...Nf6 2.c4 e6 avoids).

It's a matter of taste really. Black has combative answers to the Trompowsky, and I personally would prefer not being committed to an early ...d5 against the London. Though most QGD players would likely enjoy the solid positions after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.

This exact move order issue is actually a bit annoying for me as White, since I've been meaning to add 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 to my repertoire while still continuing to face the KID, Nimzo-Indian, Grünfeld, etc. head-on with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4. But this way I can't actually avoid the QGD, or even the Slav (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6!? 3.Nc3/Nf3 d5), though thankfully the latter move order is rarer still.

So with this kind of repertoire White "merely" avoids some Queen's Gambit lines: The QGA, Alatortsev, Tarrasch, Triangle, Slav with an early ...dxc4, Chigorin, Albin and Symmetrical. In practice he will of course see the remaining QGD and Slav lines quite a bit less than a 1.d4 d5 2.c4 player would, but he still needs to have something prepared for them.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #4 - 02/15/18 at 19:51:09
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I meant to add that it's also a bit of an anti-Catalan move order,  because 3.g3 can be met with 3...c5 and 3.Nf3 Black could play either 3...c5 or 3...b6. 

So like everything, it comes down to which openings Black prefers to face and which ones he'd prefer to avoid, and at what cost.
  
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #3 - 02/15/18 at 17:22:55
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/15/18 at 15:14:09:
There is nothing theoretically wrong with the move order, but 2.Bg5 becomes a serious move.

From the Black player's perspective, the main question is why you'd allow White to play the Trompowsky.  On the other hand, this is a very flexible move order, and I suspect that it's chosen mostly by players who are happy to play various lines of the Nimzo, 70475C56415D506750513500, and QGD depending on move and opponent.

I am mainly a Slav-player (via 1...d5 or 1...c6) for about 15 years now (which you can also start with 1....Nf6, but I have never done that (yet)), but my main concern about returning to 1...Nf6 is the Trompowsky! However in my previous 85 games with 1.d4 Nf6 I have exactly ZERO games with 2.Bg5!  Smiley
  
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #2 - 02/15/18 at 15:14:09
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A fourth reason might be that White deviated from their normal lines, or a variation that Black had prepared for, and out of practicality Black decided to revert to a QGD.

There is nothing theoretically wrong with the move order, but 2.Bg5 becomes a serious move.  The only other slight downside I can think of is that some White players may be put off by some kind of Triangle or Semi-Slav setups, and they don't have to worry about them against the 1...Nf6 move order, unless they want to play 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Bf4, in which case they'd still need something prepared against 4...c6. 

From the Black player's perspective, the main question is why you'd allow White to play the Trompowsky.  On the other hand, this is a very flexible move order, and I suspect that it's chosen mostly by players who are happy to play various lines of the Nimzo, QID, and QGD depending on mood and opponent.   
« Last Edit: 02/15/18 at 19:45:18 by ErictheRed »  
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mn
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Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #1 - 02/15/18 at 10:14:27
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Yeah, after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3, there are a bunch of games that have gone 3...d5, but still far less than with 3...Bb4. There are a few reasons I can think of for choosing this move order as opposed to 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6

1. "Bluffing" the Nimzo-Indian in hopes White plays 3 Nf3, when he has fewer options after 3...d5.

2. Planning to play the Nimzo-Indian, but changing their mind at the last second.

3. More options against 2 Bf4.
  
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Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
02/15/18 at 09:53:36
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I have never played the QGD with Black. I was looking at the Benoni via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...c5 and wondered if this could also aply to the QGD. Are there (top-)players who use this move-order to get to the QGD, and not just to duck the Benoni after 3.Nc3?
  
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