Latest Updates:
Normal Topic Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ? (Read 6704 times)
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 821
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #9 - 03/28/18 at 16:15:34
Post Tools
Black might want to avoid the Catalan.

1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3g3 c5!?
1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 b6 or 3...c5!? or 3...Bg4ch
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fjd
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #8 - 03/22/18 at 19:27:32
Post Tools
If White wants a harmless Carlsbad, he can still go 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 d5 4 cxd5 though, right?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tracke
Senior Member
****
Offline


Introite tam etiam ibi
dei sunt

Posts: 466
Location: Kiel (GER)
Joined: 09/21/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #7 - 03/22/18 at 19:04:50
Post Tools
Maybe Black wants to play ...Nxd5 (and Semi-Tarrasch) against QGE and avoids 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 cd ed and Karlsbad structure?!

tracke Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
yolocounty
Junior Member
**
Offline


Yes, I push wood, why
do you ask?

Posts: 63
Location: Yolo County
Joined: 07/02/14
Gender: Male
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #6 - 03/22/18 at 18:29:27
Post Tools
I would think that avoiding the Trompowsky would be a bigger deal than avoiding the 1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 route to a London System, but your mileage may vary.  If you aren't worried about the Tromp then I would play 1. Nf6 simply because there isn't a lot else to be concerned about with that move order.

I guess there is one more subtlety:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 and 5. Bg5.  If you want to play ...Be7 before ...Nf6 in the QGD obviously 1. ...Nf6 is not the way to go!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3274
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #5 - 02/16/18 at 01:11:16
Post Tools
It's not obvious to me that 1.d4 Nf6 2.Bg5 (which 1.d4 d5 avoids) is more of a problem for Black than 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 (which 1...Nf6 2.c4 e6 avoids).

It's a matter of taste really. Black has combative answers to the Trompowsky, and I personally would prefer not being committed to an early ...d5 against the London. Though most QGD players would likely enjoy the solid positions after 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4.

This exact move order issue is actually a bit annoying for me as White, since I've been meaning to add 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 to my repertoire while still continuing to face the KID, Nimzo-Indian, Grünfeld, etc. head-on with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4. But this way I can't actually avoid the QGD, or even the Slav (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c6!? 3.Nc3/Nf3 d5), though thankfully the latter move order is rarer still.

So with this kind of repertoire White "merely" avoids some Queen's Gambit lines: The QGA, Alatortsev, Tarrasch, Triangle, Slav with an early ...dxc4, Chigorin, Albin and Symmetrical. In practice he will of course see the remaining QGD and Slav lines quite a bit less than a 1.d4 d5 2.c4 player would, but he still needs to have something prepared for them.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #4 - 02/15/18 at 19:51:09
Post Tools
I meant to add that it's also a bit of an anti-Catalan move order,  because 3.g3 can be met with 3...c5 and 3.Nf3 Black could play either 3...c5 or 3...b6.   

So like everything, it comes down to which openings Black prefers to face and which ones he'd prefer to avoid, and at what cost.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 634
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #3 - 02/15/18 at 17:22:55
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 02/15/18 at 15:14:09:
There is nothing theoretically wrong with the move order, but 2.Bg5 becomes a serious move.

From the Black player's perspective, the main question is why you'd allow White to play the Trompowsky.  On the other hand, this is a very flexible move order, and I suspect that it's chosen mostly by players who are happy to play various lines of the Nimzo, 70475C56415D506750513500, and QGD depending on move and opponent.

I am mainly a Slav-player (via 1...d5 or 1...c6) for about 15 years now (which you can also start with 1....Nf6, but I have never done that (yet)), but my main concern about returning to 1...Nf6 is the Trompowsky! However in my previous 85 games with 1.d4 Nf6 I have exactly ZERO games with 2.Bg5!  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #2 - 02/15/18 at 15:14:09
Post Tools
A fourth reason might be that White deviated from their normal lines, or a variation that Black had prepared for, and out of practicality Black decided to revert to a QGD. 

There is nothing theoretically wrong with the move order, but 2.Bg5 becomes a serious move.  The only other slight downside I can think of is that some White players may be put off by some kind of Triangle or Semi-Slav setups, and they don't have to worry about them against the 1...Nf6 move order, unless they want to play 4.Nf3 Be7 5.Bf4, in which case they'd still need something prepared against 4...c6.  

From the Black player's perspective, the main question is why you'd allow White to play the Trompowsky.  On the other hand, this is a very flexible move order, and I suspect that it's chosen mostly by players who are happy to play various lines of the Nimzo, QID, and QGD depending on mood and opponent.   
« Last Edit: 02/15/18 at 19:45:18 by ErictheRed »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fjd
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
Reply #1 - 02/15/18 at 10:14:27
Post Tools
Yeah, after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3, there are a bunch of games that have gone 3...d5, but still far less than with 3...Bb4. There are a few reasons I can think of for choosing this move order as opposed to 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6

1. "Bluffing" the Nimzo-Indian in hopes White plays 3 Nf3, when he has fewer options after 3...d5.

2. Planning to play the Nimzo-Indian, but changing their mind at the last second.

3. More options against 2 Bf4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 634
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Pros and cons of 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...d5 ?
02/15/18 at 09:53:36
Post Tools
I have never played the QGD with Black. I was looking at the Benoni via 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3...c5 and wondered if this could also aply to the QGD. Are there (top-)players who use this move-order to get to the QGD, and not just to duck the Benoni after 3.Nc3?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo