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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What to play against nd2? (Read 5963 times)
Leon_Trotsky
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #19 - 04/18/18 at 01:30:02
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Stigma wrote on 04/17/18 at 22:48:28:
Berg is an expert on the ...Nxf6 main lines, and he certainly covered that in his French book (Volume 3). Are you saying he also covered ...Qxf6 as a backup line?


Somehow I messed up or confused myself. I meant the Berg lines with ...Cxf6 and setup ...Dc7/...Ad6 instead of just straight ...0-0 with the...Ce4 ideas. I would play the former, and not the latter.

But then again, I would also rather play the ...Dxf6 lines instead of the ...Cxf6 with ...0-0/...Ce4 setup.

Simplest in my opinion though is just to go 3...c5 like above.
  
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mn
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #18 - 04/18/18 at 00:29:31
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Not that I can find.
  
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Stigma
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #17 - 04/17/18 at 22:48:28
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 04/17/18 at 05:59:55:
3...Cf6 is good but more static. I would avoid the ...Cxf6 lines and go for ...Dxf6 like in Berg. I notice that in under 2300 people like to play ....Cxf6 lines, mishandle the moves after theory and then get a strategically lost position.

Berg is an expert on the ...Nxf6 main lines, and he certainly covered that in his French book (Volume 3). Are you saying he also covered ...Qxf6 as a backup line?
  

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Stigma
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #16 - 04/17/18 at 22:39:32
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RdC wrote on 04/17/18 at 08:56:19:
It's possible to force a .. Qxd5 position. So 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 (or Nc3) exd4 4. Nxe4 and now 4. .. Qd5.

That doesn't make it any good, but it's infrequent.

The main line in the sense of most often played is to hit the Queen with 5. Nc3 and now after 5. .. Bb4 it's a position that can also arise from the Winawer 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. exd5 Qxd5 and for that matter the sequence 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Bb4

While this sideline does involve ...Qd5, it has very little to do with the exd5 Qxd5 Tarrasch main line under discussion here. A lot of the reason why that's a critical line is it tries to punish White for putting the knight on d2, when the more natural Nc3 is no longer available.
  

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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #15 - 04/17/18 at 08:56:19
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 04/17/18 at 05:59:55:
White is playing for two results, while after 4...Qxd5, judging from what I've seen of the Ntirlis/Aaagard repertoire, Black has to be very precise to equalize.



It's possible to force a .. Qxd5 position. So 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 (or Nc3) exd4 4. Nxe4 and now 4. .. Qd5.

That doesn't make it any good, but it's infrequent.

The main line in the sense of most often played is to hit the Queen with 5. Nc3 and now after 5. .. Bb4 it's a position that can also arise from the Winawer 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. exd5 Qxd5 and for that matter the sequence 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 Qxd5 4. Nc3 Bb4
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #14 - 04/17/18 at 05:59:55
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mn wrote on 04/16/18 at 09:45:41:
My own reasoning for playing 3 Nd2 with White is that I don't feel especially comfortable with any line against the Winawer. Besides, sub 2400 level, in my experience, you get 3...Nf6 most of the time anyways - 3...c5 are fairly "un-French" positions. I'm also not convinced White's cause for an advantage is hopeless; after 4...ed5, there's a lot of positions where (in principle), White is playing for two results, while after 4...Qxd5, judging from what I've seen of the Ntirlis/Aaagard repertoire, Black has to be very precise to equalize. I don't think 4 Ngf3!? cd4 5 Nxd4 is so simple either.



I used to play 3. Cd2 until I stopped playing 1. e4 ever again, like you say even worse I found was to have to face the Winawer (and the Classical was no fun either to be honest).

After 3...c5 if White wants to muck up the position earlier with 4. Cgf3 cxd4 5. Cxd4, I remember that here on ChessPublishing they had some coverage of 5...Cf6 6. exd5 Dxd5 7. Cb5 Dd8. I would not want to try for an advantage here for White.

4...exd5 is good if Black is a good technician/endgame player. If they have problems handling the IQP and White is the good technigian, then it gets complicated of course.

3...Cf6 is good but more static. I would avoid the ...Cxf6 lines and go for ...Dxf6 like in Berg. I notice that in under 2300 people like to play ....Cxf6 lines, mishandle the moves after theory and then get a strategically lost position.
  
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mn
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #13 - 04/16/18 at 09:45:41
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 04/16/18 at 05:56:45:
kylemeister wrote on 04/13/18 at 20:25:41:
I don't know a lot about them.  A couple of things are, he did a 2-DVD treatment of the opening with a total playing time of almost 16 hours, and a 60-minute thingy about playing against the Advance.

https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_wie_spielt_man_franzoesisch
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_1-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_2-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_solide_aufgebaut_gegen_die_...


How do the DVDs compare with today's theory? Are they good complements to Berg's books?

With all due respect, it feels awkward having two presenters in one DVD video. I feel that one person presenting can go faster than talking with two people, but that is just my opinion.

Returning to 3. Cd2, I really would not want to play this if Black plays 3...c5. I do not think that White has anything against either option 4...exd5 or 4...Dxd5. If it were not enough, in 4...Dxd5 Black has the new plan of 6...Dd7 and having the setup with a Dc7/Ad6/Ce7. I believe that one of the recent NIC Yearbooks covered this idea. To me it seems that White's choices in that line are against which equal lines s/he would rather play.




My own reasoning for playing 3 Nd2 with White is that I don't feel especially comfortable with any line against the Winawer. Besides, sub 2400 level, in my experience, you get 3...Nf6 most of the time anyways - 3...c5 are fairly "un-French" positions. I'm also not convinced White's cause for an advantage is hopeless; after 4...ed5, there's a lot of positions where (in principle), White is playing for two results, while after 4...Qxd5, judging from what I've seen of the Ntirlis/Aaagard repertoire, Black has to be very precise to equalize. I don't think 4 Ngf3!? cd4 5 Nxd4 is so simple either.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #12 - 04/16/18 at 05:56:45
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kylemeister wrote on 04/13/18 at 20:25:41:
I don't know a lot about them.  A couple of things are, he did a 2-DVD treatment of the opening with a total playing time of almost 16 hours, and a 60-minute thingy about playing against the Advance.

https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_wie_spielt_man_franzoesisch
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_1-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_2-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_solide_aufgebaut_gegen_die_...


How do the DVDs compare with today's theory? Are they good complements to Berg's books?

With all due respect, it feels awkward having two presenters in one DVD video. I feel that one person presenting can go faster than talking with two people, but that is just my opinion.

Returning to 3. Cd2, I really would not want to play this if Black plays 3...c5. I do not think that White has anything against either option 4...exd5 or 4...Dxd5. If it were not enough, in 4...Dxd5 Black has the new plan of 6...Dd7 and having the setup with a Dc7/Ad6/Ce7. I believe that one of the recent NIC Yearbooks covered this idea. To me it seems that White's choices in that line are against which equal lines s/he would rather play.


  
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Stigma
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #11 - 04/16/18 at 00:35:24
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It seems like everybody recommends the ...Qxd5 lines these days (or worry about them if they're playing White). I will probably take them up myself if I return to the French, though the rebel in me protests following the herd...

kylemeister wrote on 04/13/18 at 20:25:41:
I don't know a lot about them.  A couple of things are, he did a 2-DVD treatment of the opening with a total playing time of almost 16 hours, and a 60-minute thingy about playing against the Advance.

https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_wie_spielt_man_franzoesisch
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_1-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_2-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_solide_aufgebaut_gegen_die_...

I've seen large parts of the Französisch 1+2 discs, though in the 1st editions. If I recall correctly they demonstrated lots of typical French themes by going through and explaining insiprational games, some of them Luther's own, though without trying to present a coherent repertoire. I gather that's the job of the Luther/Jordan disc instead: Present a repertoire for Black.

Has anybody seen either of the Luther/Jordan discs? I'm especially interested in their recommendations against the Advance, where I've been on the lookout for something solid and good for years. According to the blurb they take sidelines seriously, which may mean in-depth treatment of the Exchange - it has been used a bit more on GM level lately.
« Last Edit: 04/16/18 at 08:04:32 by Stigma »  

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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #10 - 04/13/18 at 20:25:41
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/18 at 19:51:34:
Not to go off topic, but what does he recommend on the those dvds? Thanks for the info on the book I will look for it.


I don't know a lot about them.  A couple of things are, he did a 2-DVD treatment of the opening with a total playing time of almost 16 hours, and a 60-minute thingy about playing against the Advance.

https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_wie_spielt_man_franzoesisch
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_1-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/franzosisch_2-2_auflage
https://shop.chessbase.com/de/products/luther_jordan_solide_aufgebaut_gegen_die_...
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #9 - 04/13/18 at 19:54:24
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Thanks everyone for the info, I will get Ntirlis & Aagaard book. Quick question on the Qxd5 lines, does black usually go 0-0-0 in them? Or is it based on what white does?
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #8 - 04/13/18 at 19:51:34
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kylemeister wrote on 04/13/18 at 19:12:42:
Mtal wrote on 04/13/18 at 18:48:50:
Thomas Luther did a French book? Wow he was always one of my French role models, especially with Ba5 in winawer.


Not a French book (Luther's Chess Reformation).  He has done some French DVDs for ChessBase, albeit in German.


Not to go off topic, but what does he recommend on the those dvds? Thanks for the info on the book I will look for it.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #7 - 04/13/18 at 19:12:42
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Mtal wrote on 04/13/18 at 18:48:50:
Thomas Luther did a French book? Wow he was always one of my French role models, especially with Ba5 in winawer.


Not a French book (Luther's Chess Reformation).  He has done some French DVDs for ChessBase, albeit in German.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #6 - 04/13/18 at 18:48:50
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Kieran wrote on 02/22/18 at 10:55:26:
I play the c5/Qd5 variation as well and I would recommend Thomas Luther's book (QualityChess) which has a very detailed section on this variation from black's perspective.


Thomas Luther did a French book? Wow he was always one of my French role models, especially with Ba5 in winawer.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #5 - 02/22/18 at 10:55:26
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I play the c5/Qd5 variation as well and I would recommend Thomas Luther's book (QualityChess) which has a very detailed section on this variation from black's perspective.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #4 - 02/22/18 at 08:12:16
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Against Nd2 c5 ed5 Qd5 you get lines most similar to the Sicilian that to French usual typical structures. If don't mind it, it's the way to go. 3...Nf6 is more "frenchie", typical pawn on e6, typical bad bishop to recycle... in that aspect it is easy to handle the positions.

I play 3...c5 intending Qxd5 and I suffered at little at the beginning (not because the positions, that are OK, but because of total open nature of the game, more like in the Sicilian). Now I am very satisfied with my choose. One key point in these lines is that usually you can get your pawns doubled and play gxf6 if you have enough development (you bishop will arrive soon to b7) because all the attacking chances are yours with Rg8 (or g7 to defend h7) and Bb7 against g2.

Salut,

The source is Ntirlis & Aagaard book, of course. And from White perspective Sergey Tiviakov and Michael Adams two-bishop technical wins are the model to follow.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #3 - 02/22/18 at 03:55:00
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Mtal wrote on 02/21/18 at 21:42:36:
Hi all, I usually play nf6 against nd2, I actually play some of the lines in the simon williams book on the French. I love the sharp stuff but feel I don't have time to study it like I should. Anyone have a good option to play instead of that. I do,t mind sticking to nf6, maybe there's a good off best try I could use? Well any info would be great, and if you can provide a good reference, book or video, and players who use it, it would give me a good starting point to do my research. Thanks.


  • Reference Work - Playing the French by Jacob Aagaard and Nikolaos Ntirlis - I play the Tarrasch as White and can confess to you that the analysis and recommendations in this book are annoyingly effective: 'Acclaimed authors Ntirlis and Aagaard present a complete repertoire for Black based on 3.Nc3 Nf6 and 3.Nd2 c5 (4 exd5 Qxd5!). With many new discoveries and detailed explanations of positional and strategic motifs, this book is essential reading for those playing this complex opening with either colour.'


  • Modern advocates to watch - Lenderman; Vitiugov; Wang Hao; Malathatko, V; Lupulescu, C and Tiviakov (Yes even Tiviakov)


  • Instructive videos to watch from Black's point of view - Not many that I can recommend to be honest -
    However, GM Damien Lemos' - Crush White with the French Defense (I think 2016) was pretty good, and you might enjoy that, especially as the Tarrasch recommendation is very similiar  to what Aagaardd and Ntirlis give in their book.


Hope that helps.

Bye,
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #2 - 02/21/18 at 23:47:13
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Personally, I find 3...c5 4 exd5 Qxd5 the most annoying to face from the White side - there's some good material on it in Playing the French. If you don't mind playing an IQP, I'd suggest 3...c5 4 exd5 exd5 5 Nf3 and now 5...a6!?, stopping the usual Bb5(+), and aiming to keep as many pieces on the board as possible.
  
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Re: What to play against nd2?
Reply #1 - 02/21/18 at 22:31:27
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I'd recommend looking at 3...a6 first.  There are a few ideas in the "Dangerous Weapons" book that you might check out, though it's a bit dated now.  If 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.e5 you reach positions very similar to 3...Nf6 and have avoided the lines with f2-f4.
« Last Edit: 02/22/18 at 16:30:53 by ErictheRed »  
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What to play against nd2?
02/21/18 at 21:42:36
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Hi all, I usually play nf6 against nd2, I actually play some of the lines in the simon williams book on the French. I love the sharp stuff but feel I don't have time to study it like I should. Anyone have a good option to play instead of that. I do,t mind sticking to nf6, maybe there's a good off best try I could use? Well any info would be great, and if you can provide a good reference, book or video, and players who use it, it would give me a good starting point to do my research. Thanks.
  
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