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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #15 - 02/08/19 at 12:44:18
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mn wrote on 02/08/19 at 00:32:24:
I would argue that this is a good way to go for someone who only wants to play the "pure" King's Indian structure, avoiding any lines where the theoretically approved method is to go for a Benoni.


That fits in my case as I prefer e5 set ups to c5 ones, but to play the KID, and indeed the Pirc, you really need to be comfortable in both as they really rely on flexibility.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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mn
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #14 - 02/08/19 at 00:32:24
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Stigma wrote on 02/07/19 at 11:25:31:
JEH wrote on 02/07/19 at 09:49:45:
The reason I play the Pirc over the Modern is so that I can go 1. d4 d6 and only go into a KID when White commits to Nf3.

So that means you want to avoid the "d4 Modern"?

I'm guessing you play 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5. Otherwise if you played 1.d4 d6 2.c4 g6 allowing 3.e4, you might as well play 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 too and keep white guessing whether 3.Nc3 will be met with 3...Bg7 or 3...Nf6.

More generally I've also been tempted by the ploy of only going into a KID when White commits to Nf3. The problem is some of those Nf3 lines are quite strong! Like the Bayonet, Mar del Plata, Fianchetto, Gligoric and Makogonov.

I sometimes wonder if I should instead try to strike a deal with my opponents that I will play the KID on the condition that they don't put their knight on f3...


I would argue that this is a good way to go for someone who only wants to play the "pure" King's Indian structure, avoiding any lines where the theoretically approved method is to go for a Benoni.
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #13 - 02/07/19 at 11:32:29
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Stigma wrote on 02/07/19 at 11:25:31:
I'm guessing you play 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5


Yes, for being able to play that, as I like the resulting positions.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Stigma
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #12 - 02/07/19 at 11:25:31
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JEH wrote on 02/07/19 at 09:49:45:
The reason I play the Pirc over the Modern is so that I can go 1. d4 d6 and only go into a KID when White commits to Nf3.

So that means you want to avoid the "d4 Modern"?

I'm guessing you play 1.d4 d6 2.c4 e5. Otherwise if you played 1.d4 d6 2.c4 g6 allowing 3.e4, you might as well play 1.d4 d6 2.e4 g6 too and keep white guessing whether 3.Nc3 will be met with 3...Bg7 or 3...Nf6.

More generally I've also been tempted by the ploy of only going into a KID when White commits to Nf3. The problem is some of those Nf3 lines are quite strong! Like the Bayonet, Mar del Plata, Fianchetto, Gligoric and Makogonov.

I sometimes wonder if I should instead try to strike a deal with my opponents that I will play the KID on the condition that they don't put their knight on f3...
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #11 - 02/07/19 at 09:49:45
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The reason I play the Pirc over the Modern is so that I can go 1. d4 d6 and only go into a KID when White commits to Nf3.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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MNb
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #10 - 02/06/19 at 18:12:08
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WSS wrote on 02/06/19 at 13:24:28:
but have not done the research yet to think through the options of when to stay with the Modern move order versus Pirc.  I believe I remember reading a thread on that topic in the past but haven't looked it up yet.  So far I've been studying the Marin repertoire to get a better feel for the positions that arise.

The course you should take is pretty simple then: continue studying the Pirc indeed. The reason is that Black can always reach the Pirc via 1...g6 or via 1...d6 and 2...g6. Only if you meet a setup for White you're not comfortable with as Black start researching options without ...Nf6. Then remember that after for instance 1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 b5 Black still can transpose back by playing ...Nf6 at a good moment. This way you get more options and that's always nice.
  

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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #9 - 02/06/19 at 13:33:06
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JEH wrote on 02/05/19 at 16:16:08:
Gosh, this is a blast from the past!

Also note this thread, which was another attempt to work out where to focus study

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1474639249/15

You need to be ready for:

1. Austrian    4. f4
2. Argentine  4. f3 or 4. Be3 with a later f3
3. Classical    4. Nf3 (150 attack, Be2 classical and Accelerated classical)
4. Byrne        4. Bg5

Others can wait.

I like Marin's almost universal c6 repertoire (particularly against the Classical)

5..c5 was my most played choice vs. Austrian, but I score best with 0-0/Nc6 vs. the Austrian which seems got have got a books from recent books (Tiger's Modern/Kornev for example), and I like Nc6 vs. the Be2 Classical as it goes back to Pirc roots, but you can end up with a repertoire with different sets ups depending on White's various Classical set ups.






Thanks JEH and Confused by Theory.  I appreciate the helpful advice.  As an older player, economy of study is much more important than when I was younger!   Wink
  
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #8 - 02/06/19 at 13:24:28
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MNb wrote on 02/05/19 at 17:40:22:
WSS wrote on 02/05/19 at 12:49:42:
I am starting to work on learning the Pirc for the first time.

If you happen to play the KID as well I recommend 1...g6. It's more flexible, especially against 4.Be3, 4.Bf4 and 4.Bg5.


Yes, I do play the KID.  In fact, a GM friend suggested I learn the Pirc because I am quite comfortable playing the KID.  I've thought about using the Modern move order for that very reason but have not done the research yet to think through the options of when to stay with the Modern move order versus Pirc.  I believe I remember reading a thread on that topic in the past but haven't looked it up yet.  So far I've been studying the Marin repertoire to get a better feel for the positions that arise.
  
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MNb
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #7 - 02/05/19 at 17:40:22
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WSS wrote on 02/05/19 at 12:49:42:
I am starting to work on learning the Pirc for the first time.

If you happen to play the KID as well I recommend 1...g6. It's more flexible, especially against 4.Be3, 4.Bf4 and 4.Bg5.
  

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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #6 - 02/05/19 at 16:25:47
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P.S. Also be ready for 3. Bd3 which and lines where White defers d4 aiming for e.g. a Closed Sicilian or Grand Prix type set up.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #5 - 02/05/19 at 16:16:08
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Gosh, this is a blast from the past!

Also note this thread, which was another attempt to work out where to focus study

https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1474639249/15

You need to be ready for:

1. Austrian    4. f4
2. Argentine  4. f3 or 4. Be3 with a later f3
3. Classical    4. Nf3 (150 attack, Be2 classical and Accelerated classical)
4. Byrne        4. Bg5

Others can wait.

I like Marin's almost universal c6 repertoire (particularly against the Classical)

5..c5 was my most played choice vs. Austrian, but I score best with 0-0/Nc6 vs. the Austrian which seems got have got a books from recent books (Tiger's Modern/Kornev for example), and I like Nc6 vs. the Be2 Classical as it goes back to Pirc roots, but you can end up with a repertoire with different sets ups depending on White's various Classical set ups.




  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #4 - 02/05/19 at 15:44:19
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Hi.

I would say 4.Be3 is the single most important line to study.  Simply in terms of popularity mainly. To me it has also seemed like something of a process to play those early middlegames well as black. Seeing as I would not like to allow 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 like Kornev, using Marin's 4...c6 is what I would recommend.

The Austrian would be a close second. Unless you are in to very direct chess I don't exactly see why 5...c5 should appeal so here I would focus on Kornev's 5...0-0 and his recommended 6.Bd3 Nc6.

4.Bg5 is a system where i feel specialising a bit in Marin's 4...c6 lines could yield results and would recommend this.

Classical Pirc (4.Nf3, 5.Be2) Is a line where I somewhat feel playing the simple 6...Nc6 or fairly direct 6...Bg4 makes sense for an amateur. Between Marin's 6...c6 and Kornev's 6...e6 I feel going for Marin's lines is more sensible. The structure is easier to get from other lines so you may ramp up the number of played games with it faster. Also Marin does a very good job with explanations in the reasonably strategic positions that arise.

Other systems are not so important Tongue

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #3 - 02/05/19 at 12:49:42
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JEH, thanks for sharing this insight.  I am starting to work on learning the Pirc for the first time (the French and Sicilian have been my "go to defenses") and I have a similar rating.  Sounds like I need to initially focus on the Classical variants and Austrian Attack before going deeper.  I have Marin's GM repertoire as a reference but wondered whether it would be helpful to pickup Kornev as an alternative (if so, which lines?)
  
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JEH
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #2 - 03/13/18 at 05:45:35
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 03/13/18 at 01:16:41:
Any 3.Nd2


Noting Marin's GM repertoire update, 3. Nd2 is 1%.

I wasn't including the low % sidelines, and I'd only noted the 4. Bc4 with 5. Qe2 (i.e. without Nf3) because of it's low frequency in relation to the coverage it gets in books and the amount of time I have spend studying it. Not sure if it is the Khomov or Short system. Whereas the set up with Nf3 and Bc4 (and also noteworthy is the amount Nf3 and Bg5) are more frequent than I had expected, and I've spent reletively little time on studying them.

Examining %'s compare with say GM choices would give very different results, so my exercise was to gain insight to the choices of players that I actually play. I float around the 1900 level, and although I'd not analysed choices based on rating, I can see set ups like 3. Bd3 and Nf3+Bc4 are mostly chosen by the lower rated players.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Pirc Stats
Reply #1 - 03/13/18 at 01:16:41
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Hey.

That spread though Tongue

Any 3.Nd2 btw? I seem to get it perhaps even more so than 3.Bd3 but for you they seem a long way off in number of occurences.

Have a nice day.
  
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