ChessPub Forum - The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates

Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2922 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #10 - 03/14/18 at 15:01:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hmmm, so was Kramnik being a bit cheeky saying it was his novelty? In fairness it is an OTB novelty, but he surely must have seen the correspondence games.


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IsaVulpes Senior Member Offline No. Posts: 345 Joined: 12/09/07	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #9 - 03/14/18 at 10:18:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	RdC wrote on 03/14/18 at 00:01:23: Quote: Everybody is saying its a novelty too, what are these games going back to 2012? Are they correspondence chess perhaps? Maybe thats why I am missing the games.... Online Blitz it appears. Whether Kramnik and Giri found the idea by reviewing the games played on lichess, or just devised it from first principles isn't known. Nah, Correspondence was correct. Lichess has a Master Database, not just its own Blitz one. https://lichess.org/JHjpRRGt#14 Bottom left of the Movelist for the book, then click on the Gear and switch to "Masters". Position has been seen 3 times, and if you google the names of the participants in eg https://lichess.org/jepaE2WO this one, one of the top results is https://www.iccf.com/EventCrossTable.aspx?id=32678


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1070 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #8 - 03/14/18 at 08:08:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Nowadays I very regularly consult the free https://database.chessbase.com/. It is probably the best free online database available. There are 4 games mentioned with the 7...Rg8 position. The oldest dates from 2012.


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fjd God Member Offline Posts: 551 Location: Ottawa Joined: 09/22/16	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #7 - 03/14/18 at 01:36:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Apparently there's a blitz game by kingscrusher with 7...Rg8, which I thought was kind of funny.


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RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 868 Joined: 05/17/08	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #6 - 03/14/18 at 00:01:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: Everybody is saying its a novelty too, what are these games going back to 2012? Are they correspondence chess perhaps? Maybe thats why I am missing the games.... Online Blitz it appears. Whether Kramnik and Giri found the idea by reviewing the games played on lichess, or just devised it from first principles isn't known.


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Keano God Member Offline Money doesn't talk, it swears. Posts: 2922 Location: Toulouse Joined: 05/25/05 Gender:	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #5 - 03/13/18 at 23:27:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I cannot find any games with 7...Rg8 in my database which is based on the MegaBase. Everybody is saying its a novelty too, what are these games going back to 2012? Are they correspondence chess perhaps? Maybe thats why I am missing the games....


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TopNotch God Member Offline I only look 1 move ahead, but its always the best Posts: 2211 Joined: 01/04/03 Gender:	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #4 - 03/13/18 at 19:00:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bancrates wrote on 03/13/18 at 12:24:03: Kramnik said there may be more resources for White in the Berlin ending than people realise. I'd be inclined to believe him considering the form he seems to be in at the moment. I'd be inclined not to believe him, considering that he jumps at every opportunity to play the Berlin. Regarding Aronian, its fair to say that he is clearly not an 1.e4 player, but what I find most astounding of all was that he played 1.e4 no doubt hoping for a Berlin. It will be interesting to see if and how Aronian recovers from this debacle after the rest day.

	The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones
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Bancrates YaBB Newbies Offline I eat combinations for breakfast. Posts: 25 Location: London Joined: 02/20/18 Gender:	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #3 - 03/13/18 at 12:24:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik said there may be more resources for White in the Berlin ending than people realise. I'd be inclined to believe him considering the form he seems to be in at the moment.

	Give no quarter. Expect none in return. Punish mistakes ruthlessly. Seek simplicity when ahead. Seek complications when behind. Respect every opponent. Fear none.
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IsaVulpes

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Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates
Reply #2 - 03/13/18 at 02:44:02

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TonyRo wrote on 03/13/18 at 02:26:55:

There are 3 games in the lichess opening explorer dating back to at least 2012 - I have heard other people's DBs have a few more. Grin

..Rg8 yeah, but the subsequent Kh1 Nh5 seems to be new, no? "Normal" continuation appears to be 8. ..h6
But yeah, in general this looked like a prep mixup. Castles+h3 isn't something one should do lightly - the whole ..g5 idea being rare is more down to White usually not allowing it, rather than due to Black uncorking a super secret novelty.

E: Regarding the title though, the Kramnik-Karjakin game was very very topical.
While it ultimately ended in a draw, at several points it felt -to me- like Black was courting desaster, which gives some hope that there is life in the endgame left yet.
Visually at least, something like

isn't exactly what I'd dream of as the outcome of the opening -
and this is already after maneuvering through some rather muddy waters, where White never felt like he was risking much

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TonyRo God Member Offline I'm gonna crack your skull! Posts: 1830 Location: Cleveland, OH Joined: 11/26/07 Gender:	Re: The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates Reply #1 - 03/13/18 at 02:26:55	Post Tools	Print Post
	RdC wrote on 03/13/18 at 00:04:59: The idea of an early .. g5 isn't entirely unknown in the Spanish, but in that precise position it appears to be a novelty. Engines seem to approve as well. There are 3 games in the lichess opening explorer dating back to at least 2012 - I have heard other people's DBs have a few more. SF also suggests it after only a brief time - much respect to Kramnik for keeping it in his back pocket for a rainy day and for playing a really beautiful game, but I think as far as the opening goes this one falls on Aronian's prep being a little sloppy, or at least knowingly risky!


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RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 868 Joined: 05/17/08	The Berlin in the Berlin Candidates 03/13/18 at 00:04:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kramnik came up with a remarkable idea in the Berlin Candidates. Against Aronian he played 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nf6 4. d3 Bc5 5. Bxc6 dxc6 6. 0-0 Qe7 7. h3 Rg8 and won very quickly. The idea of an early .. g5 isn't entirely unknown in the Spanish, but in that precise position it appears to be a novelty. Engines seem to approve as well.


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