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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna (Read 22886 times)
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #41 - 10/15/21 at 18:04:58
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:06:05:
The book appears to be limited to this line according to the back blurb, but can that really be true?
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!
[Post #3]

This position gets a lot of attention from GM Delchev at Modern-Chess.

ChessPublishing has analyzed some alternatives along the way, to include 8...Bd6, 7...Nf6, and 5...b5. One can probably spend a lot of time on anyone of these lines, something that I have not done. At this moment the one that might interest me the most is:

5...b5 6Nxb6 Nb6. A note from ChessPub at this point reads:
"We have arrived at our first important crossroads. The material remains even, but it seems Black's c4-pawn will soon be lost. However, White's center has been forced to overextend and this has left the light-squares, and the d4-pawn in particular, vulnerable."

I don't know which line is best. However it seems to me that white gets a lot of play in the pawn sac lines.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #40 - 10/15/21 at 17:35:48
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:25:06:
This could be an interesting spot to investigate, as it's not covered in either book.


Agreed. SF14 tends towards SF0 but in truth the position is unclear after
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dc4 6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Ng5 hg5 10. Bg5 Nbd7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. ef6 Bb7 13. Qg3 a6.
The authors also consider 7a4 (but I haven't checked it out yet).

One thing I like about the Vienna/Ragozin complex is that even Black "sidelines" seem viable.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #39 - 08/25/21 at 23:17:43
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A digression from openings to eBook formats and possibilities follows. I created an eBook in Chess Opening Wizard by importing the PGN version of this Vienna book.

Modern-Chess.com is currently having a 40% off sale. So I bought "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 - Ragozin and Queen's Gambit with 4...a6" by GM Davorin Kuljasevic. I imported this PGN file into the Vienna eBook. I set a color code for all "novelties." The result is that all moves from the Ragozin book have a yellow dot. This clarifies who provided the analysis, especially useful for overlaps and transpositions.

The P&I book on the Vienna is exhaustive, but on the Vienna only. Important alternatives, such as 5cxd exd 6Bg5, are not covered. The Ragozin book covers all sidelines, the Ragozin proper, and throws in an additional line for black (4...a6), but it excludes the Vienna.

These two books complement one another and merge electronically to become a single book.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #38 - 08/13/21 at 00:22:41
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:03:22:
Anyway, before I did anything else, I wanted to see if the lines from "Playing the Ragozin" I'm interested in are in any trouble, before I properly read the book, as it were.


I have the P/I book on the Vienna, but may buy Pert's book (or Cornette's) primarily for coverage of non-Vienna lines such as 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5.cxd exd 6Bg5. With Pert, I will also get his take on particular Vienna lines. With Cornette, I would also receive coverage of pure Ragozin lines.

Just for the record P/I take 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Bxc3ch as their main line. They cover several 8th move alternatives for black, focusing on 8...Qa5.

Pert chose 8...Qa5. I assume he did so because he thought it was good, and perhaps to get a little off the beaten path.

I haven't taken a good look at 6...b5 ideas. Obviously, it is very complex. It seems to be a sideline that just never goes away. 6...h6 might be O.K. too.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #37 - 08/12/21 at 22:59:05
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:03:22:
I've just downloaded the e-book version of this book. Comparing Pert and P/I's analysis, the latter seem to recommend 15 Qf3 for White (in their Game 43, Pert's line A), when they mention Pert's suggestion 15...Ke7 as "possible", without giving it an evaluation.

Following the course of the main game, Pert's recommendation of 17...Nd4 is again mentioned, and a game is quoted as leading to a draw, but without further assessment.


I don't have Pert's book, but I have P&I's book, so I will refer to that.

The first line you mention.
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Qa5 9. Bb5! Bd7 10. Bf6 Bb5 11. Nb5 gf6 12. O-O Nc6 13. a3 Bc3 14. Nc3 Rg8 15.Qf3 Ke7!? 16. Rfd1 Rad8 "is possible," P&I. I am still learning this stuff, so will lean on Stockfish 14, which indicates the game is equal (SF-12 or so).

Your second line.
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Qa5 9. Bb5! Bd7 10. Bf6 Bb5 11. Nb5 gf6 12. O-O Nc6 13. a3 Bc3 14. Nc3 Rg8 15. f4 Rd8 16. Qe1 Qb6 17. Rf2 Nd4
P&I give several alternatives for black on move 17. "17...Kf8!?" in particular evaluates well with SF (around SF 0). The position is sharp, but I think there may be a few satisfactory moves, and perhaps some unsatisfactory ones as well.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #36 - 08/12/21 at 19:56:22
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This book is not a repertoire book. It does not purport to tell you everything you need to know to answer 1d4. It is a very thorough book on the QGD Vienna. The word "exhaustive" comes to mind, though I don't know if that is possible.

As a complete book on the Vienna, it is useful to players of the white pieces because it covers ALL Vienna lines. It is also good for players of the black pieces because it contains alternative lines that black can consider, while still covering white's responses in those lines. If you start with one line, you can change to another and the book has you covered.

The book is available electronically from both Everyman and Forward Chess. The Forward Chess website also provides the Table of Contents that you can peruse.

Depending on your interests, you might also want to buy related books by Pert and Cornette. Forward Chess has both books in electronic form.

Here is a list of games from this book (Kindle edition):

Index of Complete Games
Loc 5820

Game 1 E.Bogoljubow-H.Wolf Karlsbad 1923
Loc 71
Game 2 A.Alekhine-H.Woher
Loc 112
Game 3 F.Apsenieks-E.Grünfeld
Loc 151
Game 4 C.Rosenberger-E.Grünfeld
Loc 164
Game 5 V.Chekhover-Em.Lasker
Loc 184
Game 6 A.Alekhine & H.Frank-E.Bogoljubow & Pfaffenroth
Loc 201
Game 7 M.Bartosek-L.Pachman
Loc 213
Game 8 C.Horvath-R.Ekström
Loc 484
Game 9 P.Giulian-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 519
Game 10 H.Stefansson-M.Petursson
loc 558
Game 11 R.Jankowicz-J.Trusewicz
loc 600
Game 12 R.Pogorelov-A.Kolev
Loc 630
Game 13 H.Grünberg-Cs.Horvath
Loc 651
Game 14 B.Bachmann-Sharf
Loc 667
Game 15 J.Flyckt Olsen-N.Kalinichenko
Loc 704
Game 16 Li Wenliang-M.Richter
Loc 953
Game 17 R.Ponomariov-V.Ivanchuk
Loc 993
Game 18 R.Palliser-P.Wells
Loc 1044
Game 19 A.Dreev-S.Kishnev
Loc 1073
Game 20 A.Greenfeld-J.Piket
Loc 1114
Game 21 T.Pranitchi-J.Solar
Loc 1144
Game 22 A.Grischuk-V.Kramnik
Loc 1187
Game 23 G.Gajewski-R.Wojtaszek
Loc 1517
Game 24 L.D.Nisipeanu-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 1526
Game 25 I.Khenkin-I.Khairullin
Loc 1557
Game 26 D.Navara-K.Lahno
Loc 1649
Game 27 K.Sakaev-Se.Ivanov
Loc 1726
Game 28 V.Kramnik-L.Van Wely
Loc 1762
Game 29 D.Svetushkin-S.Marjanovic
Loc 1839
Game 30 J.Piket-V.Topalov
Loc 1871
Game 31 K.Lahno-A.Kosteniuk
Loc 2170
Game 32 A.Rustemov-M.Neubauer
Loc 2214
Game 33 R.Kempinski-T.Markowski
Loc 2261
Game 34 M.Notkin-Y.Yakovich
Loc 2289
Game 35 R.Akesson-K.Landa
Loc 2345
Game 36 J.Zidu-R.Cortes Olivares
Loc 2620
Game 37 A.Dreev-I.Kharlov
Loc 2668
Game 38 V.Malakhatko-I.Khenkin
Loc 2736
Game 39 F.Patocka-G.Flitsch
Loc 2765
Game 40 A.Karpov-L.Aronian
Loc 2804
Game 41 S.Prayitno-M.Paragua
Loc 3177
Game 42 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3203
Game 43 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3274
Game 44 S.Kloster-M.Vecek
Loc 3346
Game 45 Ding Liren-W.So
Loc 3394
Game 46 T.Radjabov-L.Aronian
Loc 3412
Game 47 Le Quang Liem-Y.Shulman
Loc 3453
Game 48 Wang Yue-B.Gelfand
Loc 3492
Game 49 F.Behrhorst-F.Bulthaupt
Loc 3789
Game 50 A.Kupsys-A.Lanc
Loc 3812
Game 51 B.Machul-P.Walczak
Loc 3843
Game 52 G.Kamsky-L.Van Wely
Loc 3880
Game 53 I.Khmelniker-I.Khenkin
Loc 3921
Game 54 H.Adelseck-E.Calhau
Loc 3955
Game 55 M.Vachier Lagrave-L.Aronian
Loc 4346
Game 56 V.Kunin-A.Arustamian
Loc 4368
Game 57 N.Zhukova-A.Stefanova
Loc 4427
Game 58 Z.Ribli-P.Acs
Loc 4474
Game 59 V.Malakhatko-C.Bauer
Loc 4516
Game 60 V.Babula-M.Thesing
Loc 4842
Game 61 L.Fressinet-S.Movsesian
Loc 4913
Game 62 Z.Kozul-Ki.Georgiev
Loc 4952
Game 63 T.Polak-S.Movsesian
Loc 5021
Game 64 A.Dutra Neto-F.Hoffmann
Loc 5064
Game 65 R.Kempinski-M.Cornette
Loc 5262.
Game 66 P.Dias-S.Sulskis
Loc 5318
Game 67 P.Eljanov-J.Gustafsson
Loc 5554
Game 68 A.Shchekachev-S.Feller
Loc 5616
Game 69 Zhao Jun-Xiu Deshun
Loc 5708
Game 70 P.Lasinskas-A.Kolev
Loc 5760
Game 71 L.M.Christiansen-Z.Ribli
Loc 5789
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #35 - 07/27/21 at 17:05:37
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I mistakenly created a new thread on the Vienna, forgetting that this thread exists. My pardon. To get this book in electronic format, you can go to Amazon for the kindle book and/or:

https://everymanchess.com/products/queens-gambit-declined-vienna?_pos=2&_sid=e2c...

For the book in PGN and CBV formats.

This book really puts the focus on the position arising after 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 dxc.

5...dxc!? is Vienna variation. An alternative covered in other books is 5...h6, the Ragozin system.

I think both lines are good. Looking at games from strong players (over 2400) from 2016 to the present shows that the Ragozin has been more popular than the Vienna (494 vs. 198 games), but the Ragozin has not scored as well as the Vienna (57% vs 49%). On the face of it, this does not make sense as one would expect players to play the line which scores better. However statistics can change with every subsequent move.

Looking deeper can be hard, as each side has so many alternatives. My sense is that the Ragozin is near equal with a balanced game. The Vienna leads to a more unbalanced game, where any white advantage gets lost in the shuffle.

White can sidestep this in various ways, including 5cxd and 5Qa4ch. In fact, I avoided this line as black because I was not satisfied after his game after 5cxd. However I now think play is looking up in that line.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #34 - 05/08/19 at 14:57:47
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
Lalic (2000) Queen's Gambit Declined: Bg5 Systems

This is what I meant to refer to!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #33 - 05/08/19 at 14:56:02
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fjd wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:28:59:
Pert did.


I enjoyed that book and still go back to it from time to time. It's older and less specialized than the other titles in this thread, but is a good overview with good games and commentary.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #32 - 05/03/19 at 17:39:43
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There's a modern-chess repertoire on the Vienna as well as the Gustafsson c24 stuff
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #31 - 05/03/19 at 16:11:15
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Many of the comments on this forum ask/answer the question:  Is this a complete repertoire book? The answer is no, but that is not unique. I have Barsky's book on the Ragozin. He mentions the Vienna. That's it - no analysis, no comments. I don't know about the Cornette or Pert books.

Modern-Chess.com has an ebook on the Ragozin. It does not contain the Vienna per se, though it does overlap a little in Qa4ch lines. The same author has an e-book on the Nimzo to round out his suggested repertoire.

I guess my point is that no one has a complete repertoire book that contains the Vienna. If you have a source on the Ragozin and you have Panczyk/Ilczuk book on the Vienna, that's a good start.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #30 - 08/03/18 at 20:25:06
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Interestingly, they also disagree on the assessment of this position (from the 6...b5 line). They both give the same line after 14 0-0-0 (?! - P/I) as being okay for Black, but P/I think White can fight for an advantage with 14 Rd1 or 14 a4, without further analysis. This could be an interesting spot to investigate, as it's not covered in either book.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #29 - 08/03/18 at 20:03:22
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I've just downloaded the e-book version of this book. Comparing Pert and P/I's analysis, the latter seem to recommend 15 Qf3 for White (in their Game 43, Pert's line A), when they mention Pert's suggestion 15...Ke7 as "possible", without giving it an evaluation. Following the course of the main game, Pert's recommendation of 17...Nd4 is again mentioned, and a game is quoted as leading to a draw, but without further assessment.

I guess to some degree this can be attributed to the difference between a general reference work and a repertoire book. Pert, advocating for the Black side, kind of has to be more conclusive in saying "Yes, this equalizes for Black!". Also, from my brief glance, Pert's ...Nc6 novelty doesn't appear to be mentioned. 

Anyway, before I did anything else, I wanted to see if the lines from "Playing the Ragozin" I'm interested in are in any trouble, before I properly read the book, as it were.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #28 - 07/09/18 at 08:30:24
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Some more information on this book. Please note that I‘m a weak expert player without much experience in the Vienna!

The book seems to be good but maybe does not reach the standards that QualityChess or ChessStars have set.
Looking at Pert‘s line (Pelletier-Meier 2011, Pert p119/120) P/I stops after 14Nxc3 claiming „a slightly favourable ending for White“. While Pert gives more than a full page of dense analysis with different possiblities for Black claiming (unclear) equality on move 21. Maybe that‘s unfair to P/I because Pert choses an obscure sideline for his black rep while P/I covers everything for both sides. But P/I (without bibliography!) could have known Pert‘s analysis. At least, black players following Pert have nothing to fear.
The core of P/I‘s analysis carries games up to 2014. There are some newer ones, probably added later to an existing manuscript!? The most recent game I found was Beliavsky-Vitiugov, Heraklion oct2017. There is a remarkable use of correspondence games!
There‘s a lot of verbal explanations: not only if positions/moves are good or bad, but also if they lead to forced draws, if they are chosen often or seldom, if they are easy or difficult to play ...
Except for the disadvantage that the way to the Vienna (4th and 5th moves alternatives) is not discussed, this book seems to be a good or even very good tool for 1800 to 2300 players to get into this system. I cannot judge ( at least not so far) if it’s good for higher levels...

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #27 - 07/09/18 at 07:39:43
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tracke wrote on 07/09/18 at 07:02:38:
As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

tracke  Smiley


Oh, my bad, I completely missed Post 19 where this was very clearly spelled out  Embarrassed

Thanks for the reply.
  
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