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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna (Read 23038 times)
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #41 - 10/15/21 at 18:04:58
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:06:05:
The book appears to be limited to this line according to the back blurb, but can that really be true?
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!
[Post #3]

This position gets a lot of attention from GM Delchev at Modern-Chess.

ChessPublishing has analyzed some alternatives along the way, to include 8...Bd6, 7...Nf6, and 5...b5. One can probably spend a lot of time on anyone of these lines, something that I have not done. At this moment the one that might interest me the most is:

5...b5 6Nxb6 Nb6. A note from ChessPub at this point reads:
"We have arrived at our first important crossroads. The material remains even, but it seems Black's c4-pawn will soon be lost. However, White's center has been forced to overextend and this has left the light-squares, and the d4-pawn in particular, vulnerable."

I don't know which line is best. However it seems to me that white gets a lot of play in the pawn sac lines.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #40 - 10/15/21 at 17:35:48
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:25:06:
This could be an interesting spot to investigate, as it's not covered in either book.


Agreed. SF14 tends towards SF0 but in truth the position is unclear after
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dc4 6. e4 b5 7. e5 h6 8. Bh4 g5 9. Ng5 hg5 10. Bg5 Nbd7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. ef6 Bb7 13. Qg3 a6.
The authors also consider 7a4 (but I haven't checked it out yet).

One thing I like about the Vienna/Ragozin complex is that even Black "sidelines" seem viable.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #39 - 08/25/21 at 23:17:43
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A digression from openings to eBook formats and possibilities follows. I created an eBook in Chess Opening Wizard by importing the PGN version of this Vienna book.

Modern-Chess.com is currently having a 40% off sale. So I bought "1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 - Ragozin and Queen's Gambit with 4...a6" by GM Davorin Kuljasevic. I imported this PGN file into the Vienna eBook. I set a color code for all "novelties." The result is that all moves from the Ragozin book have a yellow dot. This clarifies who provided the analysis, especially useful for overlaps and transpositions.

The P&I book on the Vienna is exhaustive, but on the Vienna only. Important alternatives, such as 5cxd exd 6Bg5, are not covered. The Ragozin book covers all sidelines, the Ragozin proper, and throws in an additional line for black (4...a6), but it excludes the Vienna.

These two books complement one another and merge electronically to become a single book.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #38 - 08/13/21 at 00:22:41
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:03:22:
Anyway, before I did anything else, I wanted to see if the lines from "Playing the Ragozin" I'm interested in are in any trouble, before I properly read the book, as it were.


I have the P/I book on the Vienna, but may buy Pert's book (or Cornette's) primarily for coverage of non-Vienna lines such as 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5.cxd exd 6Bg5. With Pert, I will also get his take on particular Vienna lines. With Cornette, I would also receive coverage of pure Ragozin lines.

Just for the record P/I take 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Bxc3ch as their main line. They cover several 8th move alternatives for black, focusing on 8...Qa5.

Pert chose 8...Qa5. I assume he did so because he thought it was good, and perhaps to get a little off the beaten path.

I haven't taken a good look at 6...b5 ideas. Obviously, it is very complex. It seems to be a sideline that just never goes away. 6...h6 might be O.K. too.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #37 - 08/12/21 at 22:59:05
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fjd wrote on 08/03/18 at 20:03:22:
I've just downloaded the e-book version of this book. Comparing Pert and P/I's analysis, the latter seem to recommend 15 Qf3 for White (in their Game 43, Pert's line A), when they mention Pert's suggestion 15...Ke7 as "possible", without giving it an evaluation.

Following the course of the main game, Pert's recommendation of 17...Nd4 is again mentioned, and a game is quoted as leading to a draw, but without further assessment.


I don't have Pert's book, but I have P&I's book, so I will refer to that.

The first line you mention.
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Qa5 9. Bb5! Bd7 10. Bf6 Bb5 11. Nb5 gf6 12. O-O Nc6 13. a3 Bc3 14. Nc3 Rg8 15.Qf3 Ke7!? 16. Rfd1 Rad8 "is possible," P&I. I am still learning this stuff, so will lean on Stockfish 14, which indicates the game is equal (SF-12 or so).

Your second line.
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 e6 3. c4 d5 4. Nc3 Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4 6. e4 c5 7. Bc4 cd4 8. Nd4 Qa5 9. Bb5! Bd7 10. Bf6 Bb5 11. Nb5 gf6 12. O-O Nc6 13. a3 Bc3 14. Nc3 Rg8 15. f4 Rd8 16. Qe1 Qb6 17. Rf2 Nd4
P&I give several alternatives for black on move 17. "17...Kf8!?" in particular evaluates well with SF (around SF 0). The position is sharp, but I think there may be a few satisfactory moves, and perhaps some unsatisfactory ones as well.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #36 - 08/12/21 at 19:56:22
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This book is not a repertoire book. It does not purport to tell you everything you need to know to answer 1d4. It is a very thorough book on the QGD Vienna. The word "exhaustive" comes to mind, though I don't know if that is possible.

As a complete book on the Vienna, it is useful to players of the white pieces because it covers ALL Vienna lines. It is also good for players of the black pieces because it contains alternative lines that black can consider, while still covering white's responses in those lines. If you start with one line, you can change to another and the book has you covered.

The book is available electronically from both Everyman and Forward Chess. The Forward Chess website also provides the Table of Contents that you can peruse.

Depending on your interests, you might also want to buy related books by Pert and Cornette. Forward Chess has both books in electronic form.

Here is a list of games from this book (Kindle edition):

Index of Complete Games
Loc 5820

Game 1 E.Bogoljubow-H.Wolf Karlsbad 1923
Loc 71
Game 2 A.Alekhine-H.Woher
Loc 112
Game 3 F.Apsenieks-E.Grünfeld
Loc 151
Game 4 C.Rosenberger-E.Grünfeld
Loc 164
Game 5 V.Chekhover-Em.Lasker
Loc 184
Game 6 A.Alekhine & H.Frank-E.Bogoljubow & Pfaffenroth
Loc 201
Game 7 M.Bartosek-L.Pachman
Loc 213
Game 8 C.Horvath-R.Ekström
Loc 484
Game 9 P.Giulian-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 519
Game 10 H.Stefansson-M.Petursson
loc 558
Game 11 R.Jankowicz-J.Trusewicz
loc 600
Game 12 R.Pogorelov-A.Kolev
Loc 630
Game 13 H.Grünberg-Cs.Horvath
Loc 651
Game 14 B.Bachmann-Sharf
Loc 667
Game 15 J.Flyckt Olsen-N.Kalinichenko
Loc 704
Game 16 Li Wenliang-M.Richter
Loc 953
Game 17 R.Ponomariov-V.Ivanchuk
Loc 993
Game 18 R.Palliser-P.Wells
Loc 1044
Game 19 A.Dreev-S.Kishnev
Loc 1073
Game 20 A.Greenfeld-J.Piket
Loc 1114
Game 21 T.Pranitchi-J.Solar
Loc 1144
Game 22 A.Grischuk-V.Kramnik
Loc 1187
Game 23 G.Gajewski-R.Wojtaszek
Loc 1517
Game 24 L.D.Nisipeanu-Z.Gyimesi
Loc 1526
Game 25 I.Khenkin-I.Khairullin
Loc 1557
Game 26 D.Navara-K.Lahno
Loc 1649
Game 27 K.Sakaev-Se.Ivanov
Loc 1726
Game 28 V.Kramnik-L.Van Wely
Loc 1762
Game 29 D.Svetushkin-S.Marjanovic
Loc 1839
Game 30 J.Piket-V.Topalov
Loc 1871
Game 31 K.Lahno-A.Kosteniuk
Loc 2170
Game 32 A.Rustemov-M.Neubauer
Loc 2214
Game 33 R.Kempinski-T.Markowski
Loc 2261
Game 34 M.Notkin-Y.Yakovich
Loc 2289
Game 35 R.Akesson-K.Landa
Loc 2345
Game 36 J.Zidu-R.Cortes Olivares
Loc 2620
Game 37 A.Dreev-I.Kharlov
Loc 2668
Game 38 V.Malakhatko-I.Khenkin
Loc 2736
Game 39 F.Patocka-G.Flitsch
Loc 2765
Game 40 A.Karpov-L.Aronian
Loc 2804
Game 41 S.Prayitno-M.Paragua
Loc 3177
Game 42 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3203
Game 43 V.Kramnik-V.Anand
Loc 3274
Game 44 S.Kloster-M.Vecek
Loc 3346
Game 45 Ding Liren-W.So
Loc 3394
Game 46 T.Radjabov-L.Aronian
Loc 3412
Game 47 Le Quang Liem-Y.Shulman
Loc 3453
Game 48 Wang Yue-B.Gelfand
Loc 3492
Game 49 F.Behrhorst-F.Bulthaupt
Loc 3789
Game 50 A.Kupsys-A.Lanc
Loc 3812
Game 51 B.Machul-P.Walczak
Loc 3843
Game 52 G.Kamsky-L.Van Wely
Loc 3880
Game 53 I.Khmelniker-I.Khenkin
Loc 3921
Game 54 H.Adelseck-E.Calhau
Loc 3955
Game 55 M.Vachier Lagrave-L.Aronian
Loc 4346
Game 56 V.Kunin-A.Arustamian
Loc 4368
Game 57 N.Zhukova-A.Stefanova
Loc 4427
Game 58 Z.Ribli-P.Acs
Loc 4474
Game 59 V.Malakhatko-C.Bauer
Loc 4516
Game 60 V.Babula-M.Thesing
Loc 4842
Game 61 L.Fressinet-S.Movsesian
Loc 4913
Game 62 Z.Kozul-Ki.Georgiev
Loc 4952
Game 63 T.Polak-S.Movsesian
Loc 5021
Game 64 A.Dutra Neto-F.Hoffmann
Loc 5064
Game 65 R.Kempinski-M.Cornette
Loc 5262.
Game 66 P.Dias-S.Sulskis
Loc 5318
Game 67 P.Eljanov-J.Gustafsson
Loc 5554
Game 68 A.Shchekachev-S.Feller
Loc 5616
Game 69 Zhao Jun-Xiu Deshun
Loc 5708
Game 70 P.Lasinskas-A.Kolev
Loc 5760
Game 71 L.M.Christiansen-Z.Ribli
Loc 5789
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #35 - 07/27/21 at 17:05:37
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I mistakenly created a new thread on the Vienna, forgetting that this thread exists. My pardon. To get this book in electronic format, you can go to Amazon for the kindle book and/or:

https://everymanchess.com/products/queens-gambit-declined-vienna?_pos=2&_sid=e2c...

For the book in PGN and CBV formats.

This book really puts the focus on the position arising after 1d4 Nf6 2c4 e6 3Nf3 d5 4Nc3 Bb4 5Bg5 dxc.

5...dxc!? is Vienna variation. An alternative covered in other books is 5...h6, the Ragozin system.

I think both lines are good. Looking at games from strong players (over 2400) from 2016 to the present shows that the Ragozin has been more popular than the Vienna (494 vs. 198 games), but the Ragozin has not scored as well as the Vienna (57% vs 49%). On the face of it, this does not make sense as one would expect players to play the line which scores better. However statistics can change with every subsequent move.

Looking deeper can be hard, as each side has so many alternatives. My sense is that the Ragozin is near equal with a balanced game. The Vienna leads to a more unbalanced game, where any white advantage gets lost in the shuffle.

White can sidestep this in various ways, including 5cxd and 5Qa4ch. In fact, I avoided this line as black because I was not satisfied after his game after 5cxd. However I now think play is looking up in that line.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #34 - 05/08/19 at 14:57:47
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
Lalic (2000) Queen's Gambit Declined: Bg5 Systems

This is what I meant to refer to!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #33 - 05/08/19 at 14:56:02
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fjd wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:28:59:
Pert did.


I enjoyed that book and still go back to it from time to time. It's older and less specialized than the other titles in this thread, but is a good overview with good games and commentary.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #32 - 05/03/19 at 17:39:43
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There's a modern-chess repertoire on the Vienna as well as the Gustafsson c24 stuff
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #31 - 05/03/19 at 16:11:15
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Many of the comments on this forum ask/answer the question:  Is this a complete repertoire book? The answer is no, but that is not unique. I have Barsky's book on the Ragozin. He mentions the Vienna. That's it - no analysis, no comments. I don't know about the Cornette or Pert books.

Modern-Chess.com has an ebook on the Ragozin. It does not contain the Vienna per se, though it does overlap a little in Qa4ch lines. The same author has an e-book on the Nimzo to round out his suggested repertoire.

I guess my point is that no one has a complete repertoire book that contains the Vienna. If you have a source on the Ragozin and you have Panczyk/Ilczuk book on the Vienna, that's a good start.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #30 - 08/03/18 at 20:25:06
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* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

Interestingly, they also disagree on the assessment of this position (from the 6...b5 line). They both give the same line after 14 0-0-0 (?! - P/I) as being okay for Black, but P/I think White can fight for an advantage with 14 Rd1 or 14 a4, without further analysis. This could be an interesting spot to investigate, as it's not covered in either book.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #29 - 08/03/18 at 20:03:22
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I've just downloaded the e-book version of this book. Comparing Pert and P/I's analysis, the latter seem to recommend 15 Qf3 for White (in their Game 43, Pert's line A), when they mention Pert's suggestion 15...Ke7 as "possible", without giving it an evaluation. Following the course of the main game, Pert's recommendation of 17...Nd4 is again mentioned, and a game is quoted as leading to a draw, but without further assessment.

I guess to some degree this can be attributed to the difference between a general reference work and a repertoire book. Pert, advocating for the Black side, kind of has to be more conclusive in saying "Yes, this equalizes for Black!". Also, from my brief glance, Pert's ...Nc6 novelty doesn't appear to be mentioned. 

Anyway, before I did anything else, I wanted to see if the lines from "Playing the Ragozin" I'm interested in are in any trouble, before I properly read the book, as it were.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #28 - 07/09/18 at 08:30:24
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Some more information on this book. Please note that I‘m a weak expert player without much experience in the Vienna!

The book seems to be good but maybe does not reach the standards that QualityChess or ChessStars have set.
Looking at Pert‘s line (Pelletier-Meier 2011, Pert p119/120) P/I stops after 14Nxc3 claiming „a slightly favourable ending for White“. While Pert gives more than a full page of dense analysis with different possiblities for Black claiming (unclear) equality on move 21. Maybe that‘s unfair to P/I because Pert choses an obscure sideline for his black rep while P/I covers everything for both sides. But P/I (without bibliography!) could have known Pert‘s analysis. At least, black players following Pert have nothing to fear.
The core of P/I‘s analysis carries games up to 2014. There are some newer ones, probably added later to an existing manuscript!? The most recent game I found was Beliavsky-Vitiugov, Heraklion oct2017. There is a remarkable use of correspondence games!
There‘s a lot of verbal explanations: not only if positions/moves are good or bad, but also if they lead to forced draws, if they are chosen often or seldom, if they are easy or difficult to play ...
Except for the disadvantage that the way to the Vienna (4th and 5th moves alternatives) is not discussed, this book seems to be a good or even very good tool for 1800 to 2300 players to get into this system. I cannot judge ( at least not so far) if it’s good for higher levels...

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #27 - 07/09/18 at 07:39:43
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tracke wrote on 07/09/18 at 07:02:38:
As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

tracke  Smiley


Oh, my bad, I completely missed Post 19 where this was very clearly spelled out  Embarrassed

Thanks for the reply.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #26 - 07/09/18 at 07:02:38
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As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #25 - 07/09/18 at 00:15:20
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Okay, but is the starting position of the book after 4...dc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5, or after 4...dc4 (i.e. are 6 Bxc4; 5 e3; 5 Qa4+, etc. covered?). Sorry if you answered this already and I misunderstood.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #24 - 07/08/18 at 20:04:37
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Again when you look at the book the move is specifically 4...dxc4. At least in the couple of chapters I've looked through and the index of variations.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #23 - 07/07/18 at 18:28:40
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


That‘s chapter 6 dealing with (4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4 6 e4 c5) 7.Bc4
and all deviations not leading to chapters 1-5 .

(A typo/omission but not my mistake but one of Everyman or Niggemann)

tracke  Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/07/18 at 20:02:40 by tracke »  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #22 - 07/07/18 at 18:27:12
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


I thought so too at first, but in fact I don't think it's referring to "6.Bxc4" - it's Chapter #6 and talks about deviations after 7. Bxc4 (I assume).
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #21 - 07/07/18 at 13:29:47
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Almost every game in the index of variations has 4...dxc4. I haven't seen any discussion of 5.. dxc4 in the book so far. I haven't got that far Isa, I'll have a look later...yardwork.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #20 - 07/07/18 at 11:58:08
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tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #19 - 07/07/18 at 10:22:22
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Yes, mn, only about 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 !!

Of course many of the featured games have other move orders,
very often 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5 but also things like
3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4+ 6 Nc3 ...
But these move orders are not discussed and alternatives not mentioned.
The commentary always starts (at the earliest) in positions that could
have arisen from 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4!

Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .
To build a black repertoire on 4 ... dxc4 you have to add other sources!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #18 - 07/07/18 at 09:53:06
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Generally the idea seems to be 4..dc4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #17 - 07/07/18 at 07:17:30
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So, to clarify, the book starts after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4 and not 4...dc4, yes?
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #16 - 07/07/18 at 01:29:23
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The book does cover e3 and some other tries instead of e4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #15 - 06/23/18 at 14:47:29
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003 About the Authors

005 Introduction

016 Introduction to the Main Line: 7 Bxc4 cxd4 8 Nxd4 Bxc3+ 9 bxc3 Qa5

020 1 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 11 Bxf6 Qxc3+ 12 Kf1 gxf6 13 h4 a6 14 Rh3 Qa5

045 2 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 - Deviations

072 3 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Bd7

110 4 The Main Line: 10 Bxf6

137 5 The Main Line: 10 Nb5

163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

202 7 7 e5 cxd4 8 Qa4+ Nc6 9 0-0-0

229 8 6...c5 - Deviations

259 9 Black plays 6...h6

289 10 6 e4 - Deviations

303 11 White avoids 6 e4

328 Index of Variations

335 Index of Complete Games


tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #14 - 03/23/18 at 04:33:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/23/18 at 01:03:57:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me.

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90!
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.


To be fair, Pert only had to cover his ...Qa5 recommendation, and got to ignore the main body of theory with ...Bxc3+ etc.

  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #13 - 03/23/18 at 01:03:57
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me.

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90!
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #12 - 03/22/18 at 01:00:11
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Me saying 5.e3 is inaccurate did not stop Grischuk from playing this QGA line (by transposition) against Kramnik.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #11 - 03/20/18 at 19:41:31
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CanadianClub wrote on 03/20/18 at 08:09:42:
I thought with Pert + Cornette combo, we have covered in this Ragozin-Vienna complex, but who knows... maybe this is more an introductory-type of book.

Smiley

I doubt that. Panczyk and Ilczuk have a reputation for "complete" books with serious analysis, not for move by move explanations. And the Vienna being a razor-sharp line where many lines turn on deep tactics and computer analysis, it would be difficult to write an introductory-type book on it.

P.S.: To return to the topic of complete 4...dxc4 Vienna coverage, there are a few rarer lines beside 5.Bg5, 5.e4 and 5.e3 that would need to be included, like 5.Qa4+ (mentioned by an ordinary chessplayer below) and 5.g3.
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #10 - 03/20/18 at 08:09:42
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The cover is vey nice !

I thought with Pert + Cornette combo, we have covered in this Ragozin-Vienna complex, but who knows... maybe this is more an introductory-type of book.

Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #9 - 03/20/18 at 07:06:13
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fjd wrote on 03/20/18 at 03:36:29:
If only there were an Everyman editor who browsed these forums on occasion...   Cheesy


The only books I get to see in advance are the ones I work on. Not seen this one. Sorry Wink
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #8 - 03/20/18 at 03:36:29
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If only there were an Everyman editor who browsed these forums on occasion...   Cheesy
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #7 - 03/20/18 at 02:33:51
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
Stigma wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:15:43:
I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.
After 5.e4 Bb4 I don't see a good move other than 6.Bg5, which is definitely a Vienna Variation. And I think 5.e3 is a not very accurate QGA from white's point of view. So you will have to explain what critical lines you have in mind.

I was thinking of the pawn sac line IsaVulpes already mentioned: 4...dxc4 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bxc4!? etc. Do you feel Black has solved that by now? It was supposed to be critical, but I don't follow theoretical developments in the Vienna closely. In any case it would be very natural to cover it (and also 5.e3 even if that's inaccurate) in a book devoted to the Vienna.

P.S.: If neither 4...dxc4 5.e4 nor 5.e3 are dangerous, it doesn't make sense for any strong players to play the Vienna via 4...Bb4 5.Bg5 dxc4, since that gives White several extra options (5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5, 6.Bf4 or 6.Qa4+; 5.Qa4+; 5.Qc2). But they do, and 4...Bb4 is supposedly Ilczuk and Panczyk's preferred move order in the book.
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #6 - 03/20/18 at 01:46:53
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Stigma wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:15:43:
I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.
After 5.e4 Bb4 I don't see a good move other than 6.Bg5, which is definitely a Vienna Variation. And I think 5.e3 is a not very accurate QGA from white's point of view. So you will have to explain what critical lines you have in mind.

I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Lalic (2000) Queen's Gambit Declined: Bg5 Systems in his chapter 7 on the Vienna Variation has the following:
  • Game 53 4...Bb4 5.Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 dxc4
  • Game 54 4...dxc4 5.Bg5 Bb4 6. Qa4+ (and extremely brief coverage of 6.a3 and 6.e3 in a note)
  • Games 55-67 4...dxc4 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bg5
Other than that, in the Introduction he has a game Eslon-Tal, Seville 1992, with 4...dxc4 5.Qa4+. In this game white did not play Bc1-g5 at all. It's not unique in that respect. Despite the title, Lalic has a whole chapter on Bc1-f4.

4 Symbols
5 Introduction
Part 1: Exchange Variations
16 1 The Alatortsev Variation: 3...Le7 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Lf4
27 2 The Exchange Variation: White develops his Knight on e2
35 3 The Exchange Variation: White plays Sf3
Part 2: White plays an early Sf3
52 4 An Anti-Lf4 line
57 5 The Ragozin Defence
82 6 The Manhattan Variation
101 7 The Vienna Variation
Part 3: 4 Lg5: Deviations for both sides
123 8 The Dutch/Peruvian Gambit
129 9 The Cambridge Springs
149 10 White plays e3 and Tc1 without Sf3
155 11 White plays Sf3 and Tc1 without e3
Part 4: Main lines
162 12 Anti-Tartakower: Lxf6
169 13 The Lasker Defence
177 14 The Tartakower Variation: Rare lines
185 15 The Tartakower Variation: Main line
198 16 The Extended Fianchetto
202 17 The Rubinstein Variation
207 Index of variations

Table of contents lifted from here: http://www.schachversand.de/d/detail/buecher/5271.html
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #5 - 03/19/18 at 19:28:59
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Pert did.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #4 - 03/19/18 at 19:15:43
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:06:05:
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!

400 pages on just the old Ragozin/Vienna mainline seems a whole lot, considering many of the lines are rather narrow, and there isn't much to say beyond "this move is good because it's good"?!
Very curious how this will end up looking

I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.

Though many players now reach the Vienna mostly from the Ragozin (4...Bb4) move order, so perhaps the thinking is there's already enough recent coverage of the rest of the Ragozin for the Black player to consult. But then it would indeed be nice to get complete coverage of the entire Vienna, i.e. everything after 4...dxc4. AFAIK no such book has ever been published.

Btw. did Pert and/or Cornette cover this transposition to the Vienna in their respective Ragozin books?
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #3 - 03/19/18 at 19:06:05
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tracke wrote on 03/19/18 at 14:50:19:
~400 pages , 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4

The book appears to be limited to this line according to the back blurb, but can that really be true?
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!

400 pages on just the old Ragozin/Vienna mainline seems a whole lot, considering many of the lines are rather narrow, and there isn't much to say beyond "this move is good because it's good"?!
Very curious how this will end up looking
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #2 - 03/19/18 at 17:14:31
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Interesting, I'm not sure there has been much around book wise specifically for the QGD Vienna before, so I think there is a gap in the market (Cyrus Lakdawala missed a shot here  Wink)
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #1 - 03/19/18 at 15:35:00
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A non-repertoire opening book?!   Shocked
  
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Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
03/19/18 at 14:50:19
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Everyman has announced a new book for Summer 2018:

Queen´s Gambit Declined : Vienna   by Panczyk/Ilczuk

~400 pages , 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4

Nice cover: https://www.everymanchess.com/queens-gambit-declined-vienna

In the past I really liked most books of Panczyk/Ilczuk:
always good pieces of serious work and very useful.
Looking forward this, too.

tracke  Smiley

  
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