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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna (Read 11036 times)
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #34 - 05/08/19 at 14:57:47
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
Lalic (2000) Queen's Gambit Declined: Bg5 Systems

This is what I meant to refer to!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #33 - 05/08/19 at 14:56:02
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mn wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:28:59:
Pert did.


I enjoyed that book and still go back to it from time to time. It's older and less specialized than the other titles in this thread, but is a good overview with good games and commentary.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #32 - 05/03/19 at 17:39:43
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There's a modern-chess repertoire on the Vienna as well as the Gustafsson c24 stuff
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #31 - 05/03/19 at 16:11:15
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Many of the comments on this forum ask/answer the question:  Is this a complete repertoire book? The answer is no, but that is not unique. I have Barsky's book on the Ragozin. He mentions the Vienna. That's it - no analysis, no comments. I don't know about the Cornette or Pert books.

Modern-Chess.com has an ebook on the Ragozin. It does not contain the Vienna per se, though it does overlap a little in Qa4ch lines. The same author has an e-book on the Nimzo to round out his suggested repertoire.

I guess my point is that no one has a complete repertoire book that contains the Vienna. If you have a source on the Ragozin and you have Panczyk/Ilczuk book on the Vienna, that's a good start.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #30 - 08/03/18 at 20:25:06
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Interestingly, they also disagree on the assessment of this position (from the 6...b5 line). They both give the same line after 14 0-0-0 (?! - P/I) as being okay for Black, but P/I think White can fight for an advantage with 14 Rd1 or 14 a4, without further analysis. This could be an interesting spot to investigate, as it's not covered in either book.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #29 - 08/03/18 at 20:03:22
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I've just downloaded the e-book version of this book. Comparing Pert and P/I's analysis, the latter seem to recommend 15 Qf3 for White (in their Game 43, Pert's line A), when they mention Pert's suggestion 15...Ke7 as "possible", without giving it an evaluation. Following the course of the main game, Pert's recommendation of 17...Nd4 is again mentioned, and a game is quoted as leading to a draw, but without further assessment.

I guess to some degree this can be attributed to the difference between a general reference work and a repertoire book. Pert, advocating for the Black side, kind of has to be more conclusive in saying "Yes, this equalizes for Black!". Also, from my brief glance, Pert's ...Nc6 novelty doesn't appear to be mentioned. 

Anyway, before I did anything else, I wanted to see if the lines from "Playing the Ragozin" I'm interested in are in any trouble, before I properly read the book, as it were.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #28 - 07/09/18 at 08:30:24
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Some more information on this book. Please note that I‘m a weak expert player without much experience in the Vienna!

The book seems to be good but maybe does not reach the standards that QualityChess or ChessStars have set.
Looking at Pert‘s line (Pelletier-Meier 2011, Pert p119/120) P/I stops after 14Nxc3 claiming „a slightly favourable ending for White“. While Pert gives more than a full page of dense analysis with different possiblities for Black claiming (unclear) equality on move 21. Maybe that‘s unfair to P/I because Pert choses an obscure sideline for his black rep while P/I covers everything for both sides. But P/I (without bibliography!) could have known Pert‘s analysis. At least, black players following Pert have nothing to fear.
The core of P/I‘s analysis carries games up to 2014. There are some newer ones, probably added later to an existing manuscript!? The most recent game I found was Beliavsky-Vitiugov, Heraklion oct2017. There is a remarkable use of correspondence games!
There‘s a lot of verbal explanations: not only if positions/moves are good or bad, but also if they lead to forced draws, if they are chosen often or seldom, if they are easy or difficult to play ...
Except for the disadvantage that the way to the Vienna (4th and 5th moves alternatives) is not discussed, this book seems to be a good or even very good tool for 1800 to 2300 players to get into this system. I cannot judge ( at least not so far) if it’s good for higher levels...

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #27 - 07/09/18 at 07:39:43
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tracke wrote on 07/09/18 at 07:02:38:
As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

tracke  Smiley


Oh, my bad, I completely missed Post 19 where this was very clearly spelled out  Embarrassed

Thanks for the reply.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #26 - 07/09/18 at 07:02:38
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As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #25 - 07/09/18 at 00:15:20
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Okay, but is the starting position of the book after 4...dc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5, or after 4...dc4 (i.e. are 6 Bxc4; 5 e3; 5 Qa4+, etc. covered?). Sorry if you answered this already and I misunderstood.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #24 - 07/08/18 at 20:04:37
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Again when you look at the book the move is specifically 4...dxc4. At least in the couple of chapters I've looked through and the index of variations.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #23 - 07/07/18 at 18:28:40
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


That‘s chapter 6 dealing with (4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4 6 e4 c5) 7.Bc4
and all deviations not leading to chapters 1-5 .

(A typo/omission but not my mistake but one of Everyman or Niggemann)

tracke  Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/07/18 at 20:02:40 by tracke »  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #22 - 07/07/18 at 18:27:12
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


I thought so too at first, but in fact I don't think it's referring to "6.Bxc4" - it's Chapter #6 and talks about deviations after 7. Bxc4 (I assume).
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #21 - 07/07/18 at 13:29:47
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Almost every game in the index of variations has 4...dxc4. I haven't seen any discussion of 5.. dxc4 in the book so far. I haven't got that far Isa, I'll have a look later...yardwork.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #20 - 07/07/18 at 11:58:08
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tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #19 - 07/07/18 at 10:22:22
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Yes, mn, only about 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 !!

Of course many of the featured games have other move orders,
very often 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5 but also things like
3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4+ 6 Nc3 ...
But these move orders are not discussed and alternatives not mentioned.
The commentary always starts (at the earliest) in positions that could
have arisen from 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4!

Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .
To build a black repertoire on 4 ... dxc4 you have to add other sources!

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #18 - 07/07/18 at 09:53:06
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Generally the idea seems to be 4..dc4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #17 - 07/07/18 at 07:17:30
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So, to clarify, the book starts after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4 and not 4...dc4, yes?
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #16 - 07/07/18 at 01:29:23
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The book does cover e3 and some other tries instead of e4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #15 - 06/23/18 at 14:47:29
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003 About the Authors

005 Introduction

016 Introduction to the Main Line: 7 Bxc4 cxd4 8 Nxd4 Bxc3+ 9 bxc3 Qa5

020 1 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 11 Bxf6 Qxc3+ 12 Kf1 gxf6 13 h4 a6 14 Rh3 Qa5

045 2 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 - Deviations

072 3 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Bd7

110 4 The Main Line: 10 Bxf6

137 5 The Main Line: 10 Nb5

163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

202 7 7 e5 cxd4 8 Qa4+ Nc6 9 0-0-0

229 8 6...c5 - Deviations

259 9 Black plays 6...h6

289 10 6 e4 - Deviations

303 11 White avoids 6 e4

328 Index of Variations

335 Index of Complete Games


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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #14 - 03/23/18 at 04:33:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/23/18 at 01:03:57:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me.

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90!
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.


To be fair, Pert only had to cover his ...Qa5 recommendation, and got to ignore the main body of theory with ...Bxc3+ etc.

  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #13 - 03/23/18 at 01:03:57
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me.

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90!
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #12 - 03/22/18 at 01:00:11
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Me saying 5.e3 is inaccurate did not stop Grischuk from playing this QGA line (by transposition) against Kramnik.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #11 - 03/20/18 at 19:41:31
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CanadianClub wrote on 03/20/18 at 08:09:42:
I thought with Pert + Cornette combo, we have covered in this Ragozin-Vienna complex, but who knows... maybe this is more an introductory-type of book.

Smiley

I doubt that. Panczyk and Ilczuk have a reputation for "complete" books with serious analysis, not for move by move explanations. And the Vienna being a razor-sharp line where many lines turn on deep tactics and computer analysis, it would be difficult to write an introductory-type book on it.

P.S.: To return to the topic of complete 4...dxc4 Vienna coverage, there are a few rarer lines beside 5.Bg5, 5.e4 and 5.e3 that would need to be included, like 5.Qa4+ (mentioned by an ordinary chessplayer below) and 5.g3.
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #10 - 03/20/18 at 08:09:42
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The cover is vey nice !

I thought with Pert + Cornette combo, we have covered in this Ragozin-Vienna complex, but who knows... maybe this is more an introductory-type of book.

Smiley
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #9 - 03/20/18 at 07:06:13
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mn wrote on 03/20/18 at 03:36:29:
If only there were an Everyman editor who browsed these forums on occasion...   Cheesy


The only books I get to see in advance are the ones I work on. Not seen this one. Sorry Wink
  

blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #8 - 03/20/18 at 03:36:29
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If only there were an Everyman editor who browsed these forums on occasion...   Cheesy
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #7 - 03/20/18 at 02:33:51
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
Stigma wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:15:43:
I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.
After 5.e4 Bb4 I don't see a good move other than 6.Bg5, which is definitely a Vienna Variation. And I think 5.e3 is a not very accurate QGA from white's point of view. So you will have to explain what critical lines you have in mind.

I was thinking of the pawn sac line IsaVulpes already mentioned: 4...dxc4 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bxc4!? etc. Do you feel Black has solved that by now? It was supposed to be critical, but I don't follow theoretical developments in the Vienna closely. In any case it would be very natural to cover it (and also 5.e3 even if that's inaccurate) in a book devoted to the Vienna.

P.S.: If neither 4...dxc4 5.e4 nor 5.e3 are dangerous, it doesn't make sense for any strong players to play the Vienna via 4...Bb4 5.Bg5 dxc4, since that gives White several extra options (5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5, 6.Bf4 or 6.Qa4+; 5.Qa4+; 5.Qc2). But they do, and 4...Bb4 is supposedly Ilczuk and Panczyk's preferred move order in the book.
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #6 - 03/20/18 at 01:46:53
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Stigma wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:15:43:
I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.
After 5.e4 Bb4 I don't see a good move other than 6.Bg5, which is definitely a Vienna Variation. And I think 5.e3 is a not very accurate QGA from white's point of view. So you will have to explain what critical lines you have in mind.

I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Lalic (2000) Queen's Gambit Declined: Bg5 Systems in his chapter 7 on the Vienna Variation has the following:
  • Game 53 4...Bb4 5.Bg5 h6 6. Bh4 dxc4
  • Game 54 4...dxc4 5.Bg5 Bb4 6. Qa4+ (and extremely brief coverage of 6.a3 and 6.e3 in a note)
  • Games 55-67 4...dxc4 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bg5
Other than that, in the Introduction he has a game Eslon-Tal, Seville 1992, with 4...dxc4 5.Qa4+. In this game white did not play Bc1-g5 at all. It's not unique in that respect. Despite the title, Lalic has a whole chapter on Bc1-f4.

4 Symbols
5 Introduction
Part 1: Exchange Variations
16 1 The Alatortsev Variation: 3...Le7 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Lf4
27 2 The Exchange Variation: White develops his Knight on e2
35 3 The Exchange Variation: White plays Sf3
Part 2: White plays an early Sf3
52 4 An Anti-Lf4 line
57 5 The Ragozin Defence
82 6 The Manhattan Variation
101 7 The Vienna Variation
Part 3: 4 Lg5: Deviations for both sides
123 8 The Dutch/Peruvian Gambit
129 9 The Cambridge Springs
149 10 White plays e3 and Tc1 without Sf3
155 11 White plays Sf3 and Tc1 without e3
Part 4: Main lines
162 12 Anti-Tartakower: Lxf6
169 13 The Lasker Defence
177 14 The Tartakower Variation: Rare lines
185 15 The Tartakower Variation: Main line
198 16 The Extended Fianchetto
202 17 The Rubinstein Variation
207 Index of variations

Table of contents lifted from here: http://www.schachversand.de/d/detail/buecher/5271.html
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #5 - 03/19/18 at 19:28:59
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Pert did.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #4 - 03/19/18 at 19:15:43
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/19/18 at 19:06:05:
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!

400 pages on just the old Ragozin/Vienna mainline seems a whole lot, considering many of the lines are rather narrow, and there isn't much to say beyond "this move is good because it's good"?!
Very curious how this will end up looking

I agree. White can avoid the entire book and still play critical lines, by meeting 4...dxc4 with 5.e4 or 5.e3 and 4...Bb4 with 5.cxd5.

Though many players now reach the Vienna mostly from the Ragozin (4...Bb4) move order, so perhaps the thinking is there's already enough recent coverage of the rest of the Ragozin for the Black player to consult. But then it would indeed be nice to get complete coverage of the entire Vienna, i.e. everything after 4...dxc4. AFAIK no such book has ever been published.

Btw. did Pert and/or Cornette cover this transposition to the Vienna in their respective Ragozin books?
  

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #3 - 03/19/18 at 19:06:05
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tracke wrote on 03/19/18 at 14:50:19:
~400 pages , 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4

The book appears to be limited to this line according to the back blurb, but can that really be true?
I'd think a book on the Vienna should/might start with 4. ..dc4:, and also/in particular cover the pawn sac line 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4: Ne4: 7.0-0 Nc3: 8.bc3: Be7?!

400 pages on just the old Ragozin/Vienna mainline seems a whole lot, considering many of the lines are rather narrow, and there isn't much to say beyond "this move is good because it's good"?!
Very curious how this will end up looking
  
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JEH
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #2 - 03/19/18 at 17:14:31
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Interesting, I'm not sure there has been much around book wise specifically for the QGD Vienna before, so I think there is a gap in the market (Cyrus Lakdawala missed a shot here  Wink)
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #1 - 03/19/18 at 15:35:00
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A non-repertoire opening book?!   Shocked
  
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tracke
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Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
03/19/18 at 14:50:19
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Everyman has announced a new book for Summer 2018:

Queen´s Gambit Declined : Vienna   by Panczyk/Ilczuk

~400 pages , 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4

Nice cover: https://www.everymanchess.com/queens-gambit-declined-vienna

In the past I really liked most books of Panczyk/Ilczuk:
always good pieces of serious work and very useful.
Looking forward this, too.

tracke  Smiley

  
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