ChessPub Forum - Bragesjo's Taimanov

BigTy Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 56 Joined: 04/16/17 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #19 - 04/03/18 at 07:50:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/02/18 at 21:50:25: yolocounty wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:07:45: It isn't that there are not dangerous ideas out there (for instance in the Advance French as Kylemeister noted), but if you are adopting 1...c5, it isn't like that isn't on the agenda... Yes, dangerous lines should be on Black's aganda when he adopts 1...c5. The problem with 3.c3 and 3.g3 isn't the danger (though of course play can become sharp even there if both sides are so inclined). Quite the opposite: White can play a very solid, low-risk game and still be objectively fine, often without knowing a lot of theory. Exactly what Black is usually not looking for when he plays the Sicilian. Took the words right out of my mouth! It seems like the majority of my opponents are going for a slight and safe edge with the Rossolimo these days after 2...Nc6, encouraging me to take up an e6 Sicilian instead. Of course, White can probably play for a safe and solid position against any opening if he or she really wants to, but I would hope that the antis after 2...e6 would at least be less popular than after 2...Nc6. I guess the only way is to try it and find out.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4904 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #18 - 04/02/18 at 22:39:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/02/18 at 21:50:25: Yes, dangerous lines should be on Black's aganda when he adopts 1...c5. The problem with 3.c3 and 3.g3 isn't the danger (though of course play can become sharp even there if both sides are so inclined). Quite the opposite: White can play a very solid, low-risk game and still be objectively fine, often without knowing a lot of theory. Exactly what Black is usually not looking for when he plays the Sicilian. Incidentally and in line with that thought, Christof Sielecki chose 3. c3 (3...d5 4. ed) for his "Keep It Simple: 1.e4 ."


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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3265 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #17 - 04/02/18 at 21:50:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	yolocounty wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:07:45: It isn't that there are not dangerous ideas out there (for instance in the Advance French as Kylemeister noted), but if you are adopting 1...c5, it isn't like that isn't on the agenda... Yes, dangerous lines should be on Black's aganda when he adopts 1...c5. The problem with 3.c3 and 3.g3 isn't the danger (though of course play can become sharp even there if both sides are so inclined). Quite the opposite: White can play a very solid, low-risk game and still be objectively fine, often without knowing a lot of theory. Exactly what Black is usually not looking for when he plays the Sicilian.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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yolocounty Junior Member Offline Yes, I push wood, why do you ask? Posts: 63 Location: Yolo County Joined: 07/02/14 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #16 - 04/02/18 at 19:07:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	I actually adopted the Taimanov precisely because I was tired of playing against 3. Bb5 and 3. c3 having already committed to ...d6. (This may seem like a silly reason, but there it is). Really the only Anti-Sicilian against which an early ...d5 (after 1...c5, 2...e6, and sometimes a little more preparation) isn't good against is 2... (or 3...) b3. It isn't that there are not dangerous ideas out there (for instance in the Advance French as Kylemeister noted), but if you are adopting 1...c5, it isn't like that isn't on the agenda...


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4904 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #15 - 04/02/18 at 05:52:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	BigTy wrote on 04/02/18 at 04:37:45: After 3.c3 can black just play 3...d5, heading for an advanced French type position? I suppose white can take on d5 and try to give us an IQP or hanging pawns position as well... As for 3.g3, I have no idea, but maybe black can play 3...g6 and go for a closed Sicilian type setup if he wants to avoid the IQP situation. Never been on either side of 3.g3 though. Er yes, there is significant stuff via 3. c3 d5 4. e5 (4...d4) or 4. ed Qxd5 or 4. ed ed (e.g. the Tarrasch French transposition 5. d4 Nc6 6. Bb5 Bd6 7. 0-0 Nge7 8. dc Bxc5 9. Nbd2 0-0 10. Nb3 Bd6/Bb6). Re 3. g3, I wouldn't think you'd want to play 3...g6. (I'm reminded of 3. d3 Nc6 4. g3 g6 5. d4 being considered an interesting/promising possibility for White 40+ years ago.)
	« Last Edit: 04/02/18 at 07:56:03 by kylemeister »

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BigTy Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 56 Joined: 04/16/17 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #14 - 04/02/18 at 04:37:45	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stigma wrote on 04/01/18 at 22:56:34: BigTy wrote on 04/01/18 at 21:50:28: Considering that the Bb5 Sicilians are avoidable, how often do you see white deviate from the open Sicilian after 2.Nf3? Have you had to seriously restructure your anti Sicilian repertoire to accommodate tricky move orders from white? Does playing an early e6 in some cases cause you to lose flexibility? I'm not an ...e6 Sicilian expert by any means, but I would play it a lot more if not for 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3. None of mye favorite lines against the c3 Sicilian involve an early ...e6. I'm also a bit worried about 3.g3, but I have never faced that in a serious game. But it's been a few years since I last played 2...e6; I imagine 3.g3 is more well-known and more likely now. I brought it up in a thread here recently, but the conclusion seemed to be Black really should go for an IQP position against it. Not a big fan of IQPs, but that's really a weakness I should eliminate anyway. Part of the problem with both lines is I don't know them well enough, of course. But it is hard to get play that fits stylistically with a dynamic Taimanov or Kan against them. After 3.c3 can black just play 3...d5, heading for an advanced French type position? I suppose white can take on d5 and try to give us an IQP or hanging pawns position as well... As for 3.g3, I have no idea, but maybe black can play 3...g6 and go for a closed Sicilian type setup if he wants to avoid the IQP situation. Never been on either side of 3.g3 though.


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Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3265 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #13 - 04/01/18 at 22:56:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	BigTy wrote on 04/01/18 at 21:50:28: Considering that the Bb5 Sicilians are avoidable, how often do you see white deviate from the open Sicilian after 2.Nf3? Have you had to seriously restructure your anti Sicilian repertoire to accommodate tricky move orders from white? Does playing an early e6 in some cases cause you to lose flexibility? I'm not an ...e6 Sicilian expert by any means, but I would play it a lot more if not for 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3. None of mye favorite lines against the c3 Sicilian involve an early ...e6. I'm also a bit worried about 3.g3, but I have never faced that in a serious game. But it's been a few years since I last played 2...e6; I imagine 3.g3 is more well-known and more likely now. I brought it up in a thread here recently, but the conclusion seemed to be Black really should go for an IQP position against it. Not a big fan of IQPs, but that's really a weakness I should eliminate anyway. Part of the problem with both lines is I don't know them well enough, of course. But it is hard to get play that fits stylistically with a dynamic Taimanov or Kan against them.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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BigTy Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 56 Joined: 04/16/17 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #12 - 04/01/18 at 21:50:28	Post Tools	Print Post
	I'm interested in taking up the Taimanov as well, possibly as a main defense to 1.e4. My problem with my current main defense, the Sveshnikov, is that recently almost everyone has been playing the Rossolimo against me. Theoretically, this is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the kind of game I'm looking for when I play 2...Nc6. Likewise, the other Sicilian I have a lot of experience with - - the Najdorf - - is very popular otb here, and I don't have an answer to 6.Bg5 which I'm completely satisfied with... I started the Taimanov a few years back using the move by move book, but then took a long break from playing chess as a serious hobby. I thus don't remember much, as I have not gone back to it since. I have some questions for those of you who have switched to the Taimanov from a more tactical / forcing Sicilian line: How have your results changed? Do you miss the long tactical lines of the dragon / najdorf etc., or is it a relief not to have as many concrete lines to remember? Considering that the Bb5 Sicilians are avoidable, how often do you see white deviate from the open Sicilian after 2.Nf3? Have you had to seriously restructure your anti Sicilian repertoire to accommodate tricky move orders from white? Does playing an early e6 in some cases cause you to lose flexibility? Does white have any systems which are such a headache that they make you wonder why you switched to the Taimanov in the first place? Cheers!


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bragesjo God Member Offline CCE at ICCF 2021 and CCM at ICCF 2023 Posts: 1829 Location: Eskilstuna Joined: 06/30/06 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #11 - 04/01/18 at 12:30:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	That White has something in classical was new to me. Many strong players even play pawn to a3 at some point to rule out Bb4. That the line is popular has probably something to do with that players want a coherent repertoire and also plays Be2 vs for example Najdorf.


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Lauri Torni Senior Member Offline Si vis pacem, para bellum. Posts: 292 Location: Finland Joined: 01/09/03 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #10 - 03/31/18 at 10:28:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Almost all GM:s avoin the classical as black, and many are willing to play it as white. Eg. Van Kampen tells he avoids it. White has some advantage, not too much for us lesser mortals

	1.Nf3! - beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1672 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #9 - 03/30/18 at 21:51:29	Post Tools	Print Post
	(1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Be2 Nf6 8.O-O Bb4 9.Na4 Be7 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Nb6 Rb8 12.Nxc8 Qxc8 13.Bd4 c5 14.Be5 Rb6) It looks playable. A quick blindfold idea for white is 15.a4 O-O 16.a5 Rc6 17.Bf3. Or if 16...Rb4 17.f3 c4 18.Bc3 planning 19.Ra4. One idea for black would be to give up the Exchange for a pawn and pawn structure, under appropriate circumstances.


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yolocounty

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Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov
Reply #8 - 03/30/18 at 19:57:40

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Lauri Torni wrote on 03/28/18 at 10:26:06:

By the way, van Kampen in his video series on Taimanov suggests black to play after 6.Be2 Nf6 7.0-0 Be7, and avoid -a6 altogether.

However, white can play play first 6.Be3 a6 (6.-Nf6?! 7.f4!) and now 7.Be2 and 8.0-0. This avoids this 'clever' idea completely.Van Kampen actually says that Scheveningen with -a6 is quite dangerous for black while theoretically ok.

Can black benefit from the Be3+Be2 move order? The only possibility is 7.-b5. Is this good enough for equality?

I personally don't like the classical main line of Taimanov for black and currently prefer the Scheveningen approach.

I'm not sure why Black would choose to avoid the classical main line, since if he is well prepared he should get a playable game with enough imbalances to present winning chances.

Is there anything wrong with this position?

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Be2 Nf6 8.O-O Bb4 9.Na4 Be7 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.Nb6 Rb8 12.Nxc8 Qxc8 13.Bd4 c5 14.Be5 Rb6 *

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Lauri Torni Senior Member Offline Si vis pacem, para bellum. Posts: 292 Location: Finland Joined: 01/09/03 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #7 - 03/29/18 at 22:21:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	I play mainly the french, But ovcasionally the Taimanov. I think a flexible repertoire should include one Sisilian line.

	1.Nf3! - beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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bragesjo God Member Offline CCE at ICCF 2021 and CCM at ICCF 2023 Posts: 1829 Location: Eskilstuna Joined: 06/30/06 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #6 - 03/29/18 at 10:21:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Every sicilian is dangerous to play as black. Even if the variation is theoretically fine the position can still be dangerous from either a positional point of view or from a tactical point of view. Some sicilians has lines from both perspectives. I choosed Taimanov since it is a e6 based sicilian and thus allows black more easy options vs anti sicilians like 2 Nc3 e6. The book "The most flexible sicilian" was also completly new when I made that choiche. ' I have however played Najdorf in Correspondence Chess games at ICCF in 3 thematical 6 Be3 tournamnets. I got 2nd place in the first and I won my 2nd and I have 1 game left in my 3rd. I my 3rd I has not had access to any engine since I am doing renovation of my appartment but I will use it in the remaining moves in my last game since the renovation is now completed and my gaming laptop has somewhere to be placed. I lost 1 game in the last event do to a major positional blunder, since I missed the opponnets reply completly , that I would never have made if I had access to engine so the best I can hope for is 2nd place but I belive it will be 3rd place unless I win the last game or my last opponet loses a game vs the player I lost to. About Taimanov Be2 Be3 setup last time I checked white gets a slight edge if black plays an early b5.


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Lauri Torni Senior Member Offline Si vis pacem, para bellum. Posts: 292 Location: Finland Joined: 01/09/03 Gender:	Re: Bragesjo's Taimanov Reply #5 - 03/28/18 at 15:24:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Bragesjo - by the way: why didn't you choose the Najdorf instead of Taimanov? As a dragon player your tactical eye should be well trimmed To my positional eye, Taimanov is somehow unnatural. Yes, it works, but the Najdorf is much more natural.

	1.Nf3! - beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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