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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Under 2200 Tournaments in France (Read 7282 times)
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #27 - 04/12/18 at 16:21:28
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Having read through this particular post, I was surprised to hear of the lack worthwhile tournament prospects for players rated >2200.

I was surprised more so, because having only recently got involved with club chess (in Bayonne, South-West France though I am originally from the UK), the International Open my club are involved in organising at the end of April doesn't seem to suffer from the pitfalls mentioned above. For example being open to all rating levels, at current count 15 players rated >2200 participating; 7 rounds of 90'+30'' per move over 4days; and FIDE-rated. And so far has been very popular with all levels of players.

I wasn't aware until reading this post, that such a tournament is a rarity? I don't know yet but even being a lower rated player I'm excited by the prospect of such a tournament, even though I cannot win. Though as this is my first standard tournament proper and I don't know exactly what to expect.

Though the reason I was prompted to post something here is Tipau's comment.

tipau wrote on 04/05/18 at 11:18:02:
I'd rather travel out of London and pay extra for travel & accommodation to get an extra 30 minutes on my clock each game!


I think if you don't have viable tournaments nearby, and you can afford it, why not travel? With low cost flights, travelling abroad is often cheaper than travelling within the UK. Let take the International Open in Bayonne I mentioned above, you could still fly for £28 return from Stansted to Biarritz (Wed 25th - Tues 1st). And you would get to visit beautiful parts of the world. And after all these events are meant to be 'International' so should work to be viable for players from outside the host country!?

Anyway if it's of interest to anyone don't hesitate to get in touch, I could help with registration, give ideas on accommodation/travel and be an English speaking contact on hand during your time here should you need it.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #26 - 04/05/18 at 11:18:02
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I live in London and have looked at Adam's tournaments a few times. I'd like to play more chess than I do but I don't think I'll ever play in those with their current format. I dislike the rating restriction but the time control is the most off-putting thing for me. I'd rather travel out of London and pay extra for travel & accommodation to get an extra 30 minutes on my clock each game!

The 60+30 tournaments are often largely made up by seriously underrated juniors. Most people dislike playing such opponents at the best of times, but with a reduced time limit and no chance of a highly rated opponent if I win a couple it's even less attractive.

I suppose that many others feel differently and it's good that they get a chance to play 5 rounds over two days using a fast time control, as most other congresses are played at a slower pace.
  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #25 - 04/05/18 at 09:04:36
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Stigma wrote on 04/02/18 at 22:11:17:
Personally I feel 60 minutes + 30 seconds/move hardly qualifies as "standard" chess; it's something in-between standard and rapid.

I agree. I would never play three games on the Saturday, and since I only get four games over two days I'd prefer them to be at 90+30. My guess is that the prospective entrants who might be put off by this would be largely offset by people like me who are put off by the fast time limit -- not to mention the >2200s.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #24 - 04/03/18 at 08:05:55
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Speaking of France,
many of the ~2200 are experienced players who tried for most of their time to climb the ladder with no success. But, they are very close to the organizers of most tournaments, hence the organisation where they can safely hope of getting a first prize while baiting amateur players who believe that they might have a chance at winning too, given the  relatively low level of opposition.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #23 - 04/02/18 at 23:10:51
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RdC wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:08:10:
Adam (above) has been running his rating restricted 60 30 tournaments for some years. The template hasn't spread really outside of London where players above 2200 are sufficiently limited in numbers that they would be alienated if local organisers chose to exclude them. That particularly applies to GMs and IMs prepared to risk their reputations against all comers in weekend events.
Not much point in being alienated if they are already excluded.

There is a local series with only one section: U1200 + unrated. Guess the organizer's rating.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #22 - 04/02/18 at 22:58:18
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Adam Raoof wrote on 04/02/18 at 12:32:18:
... in a one-room venue you do have to synchronise the round start times in order to minimise disruption and also to allow for announcements.
Nobody actually listens to the announcements. Evidence: the number of people who approach the arbiter and ask a question that was addressed in the announcements. So, we can dispense with the announcements.

As for the disruption, this is all one way. The "Open" section will be too small to disturb the other sections. So you simply explain to the titled players that they should bring earplugs and just suck it up when the hoi polloi are beginning their rounds. If their alternative is no open section at all, they will grumble but not too loudly. Anyway I assume there are three rounds on Saturday, so at least on Sunday the all-important last round games could start together.

Here in the states the FIDE-rated weekenders are a mixed format. The player has a choice of a slow Friday night game, or two rapid games on Saturday morning. Note that these two Saturday morning rapid games overlap with the one Saturday morning slow game. Nobody complains too much about the disturbance. Sometimes they are in segregated rooms, sometimes not.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #21 - 04/02/18 at 22:53:28
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Stigma wrote on 04/02/18 at 22:32:06:
[quote author=6D5B7C3F0 link=1522495918/15#15 date=1522696090]
Do you know for a fact they don't? Maybe it's only one or a few tournaments at the moment, but that could change.


The silence of objections to the format isn't fact but a good indication.

In England, many tournaments are run locally, just the one tournament a year. As it stands currently, players rated above 2200 are welcome as enhancing the prestige of the local event.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #20 - 04/02/18 at 22:48:42
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:53:10:
Again, I find it strange that many of them label themselves 'International Open' as they certainly aren't open, and probably won't have many or any international players, either! Roll Eyes

Oh, they're still open... unless you're one of those international or national bad guys who would go there with legitimate hopes of winning them!  Tongue

I understand your frustration. Hopefully some of those organizers take notice and plan something more inclusive next time. With that silly 2200 limit even a patzer like me is banned.
  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #19 - 04/02/18 at 22:32:06
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RdC wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:08:10:
The template hasn't spread really outside of London where players above 2200 are sufficiently limited in numbers that they would be alienated if local organisers chose to exclude them. That particularly applies to GMs and IMs prepared to risk their reputations against all comers in weekend events.

Reading this, I wonder why the strong players in and around London wouldn't also feel alienated by this practice. Do you know for a fact they don't? Maybe it's only one or a few tournaments at the moment, but that could change.

RdC wrote on 04/02/18 at 19:08:10:
Elsewhere in the UK an increasingly popular format is to play one round Friday evening and two each on Saturday and Sunday. The move rate would be 90 30 and the cut off for the Open to Major somewhere between 2050 and 1900.

This 5 round/3 day schedule (but with the top group cutoff at either 1500 or 1750) has been the standard weekend format in Norway for decades, though quite often with an even longer time control*. Seems to work fine. Recently it's become common to allow players to take a half point bye in the first (Friday evening) round, and quite a few people do.

The Swedish format I just mentioned has also been tried in Norway a couple of times, I believe.

(*Back when adjournments were a thing, it was sometimes 6 rounds; 1+3+2 with no byes. On Saturday long-running round 2 and 3 games were adjourned, to be completed Saturday evening after round 4).
  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #18 - 04/02/18 at 22:13:40
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Stigma wrote on 04/02/18 at 22:11:17:
One possible solution to find time for a longer time control is a kind of schedule that's very common in Sweden: Start with 2 rounds of rapid chess to do away with the early, mismatched pairings where not many rating points change hands anyway unless there's an upset (I don't know whether these games are unrated or rated as rapid). Then from round 3 on there's the main course with 3 or 4 rounds of standard chess.

This actually sounds really, really good (3 or 4 rounds of standard chess is rather low, but the general idea of starting out with rapid to clear the field I love). Wonder if I could get some TOs over here to adopt that format..
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #17 - 04/02/18 at 22:11:17
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Adam Raoof wrote on 04/02/18 at 09:54:50:
1) this is an attractive format, and the only reason I stick with five rounds is that most players want to have the option to play all five games, and it represents value for money in that respect - and if they choose to play just four games they get some flexibility about which four games they play

[...]

3) where I have organised FIDE rated Open events with a similar timetable, the number of players 2200 or over has been minimal.  On balance I think I gain more players by having this format than I lose by having an unrated or shorter event.

However the moment FIDE makes it easy to run Opens at this time control I will make my events Open.

Adam


While I understand these reasons as well as the venue not being available Fridays, I don't feel they outweigh this discrimination of strong players. It gives people entirely the wrong incentives not to bother with improving beyond a certain point. And you have to consider that it's not just your tournament: There is an ufortunate cumulative effect that punishes strong players when several organizers think the same way, which Tony has run into.

It would be nice if FIDE changed these rules, but I think I can guess their reasoning: They want to avoid strong players stringing together large rating gains in quick tournaments like this. Personally I feel 60 minutes + 30 seconds/move hardly qualifies as "standard" chess; it's something in-between standard and rapid. So why not let them count on the rapid rating instead, which would calm some of FIDEs anxieties (if I'm right about their motives) and probably allow stronger players in again?

One possible solution to find time for a longer time control is a kind of schedule that's very common in Sweden: Start with 2 rounds of rapid chess to do away with the early, mismatched pairings where not many rating points change hands anyway unless there's an upset (I don't know whether these games are unrated or rated as rapid). Then from round 3 on there's the main course with 3 or 4 rounds of standard chess.
  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #16 - 04/02/18 at 19:53:10
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I've just had another look at some of these tournaments and indeed they seem to have 5/6 rounds spread over just two days. It's a shame as some of them have quite respectable prizes for just two days of play.
Again, I find it strange that many of them label themselves 'International Open' as they certainly aren't open, and probably won't have many or any international players, either! Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #15 - 04/02/18 at 19:08:10
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Straggler wrote on 04/02/18 at 09:33:43:
So, if I've got this right, the options for an organiser of a two-day tournament are:

(1) 4 rounds, 4-hour sessions, open to all, FIDE rated

(2) 5 rounds, 3-hour sessions, open to all, not FIDE rated


You can play a 5 round tournament with 3 games on a Saturday and 2 on a Sunday. That's a standard template in England. They aren't usually FIDE rated as that requires 4 hour sessions, leading to both an early start and a late finish on the Saturday. Instead a three and a half session is usual. That can be a straight G/105, or 36 moves in 90 minutes plus 15 to finish, or 90 minutes on the clock with 15 second increments. You could also have 75 minutes with 30 second increments, but that leaves a greater danger of games overrunning their time slot. That's important if you try to start as late as 10am and finish by 10:30 pm.

Adam (above) has been running his rating restricted 60 30 tournaments for some years. The template hasn't spread really outside of London where players above 2200 are sufficiently limited in numbers that they would be alienated if local organisers chose to exclude them. That particularly applies to GMs and IMs prepared to risk their reputations against all comers in weekend events.

Elsewhere in the UK an increasingly popular format is to play one round Friday evening and two each on Saturday and Sunday. The move rate would be 90 30 and the cut off for the Open to Major somewhere between 2050 and 1900. Players are free to enter the Open even where their rating would allow them to play in a lower section.

The 4NCL run a Congress on those lines about once every couple of months.

Here's a link to the next one coming up.

http://www.4ncl.co.uk/fide/information_18.htm

Typically there would be between 20 to 50 entrants in each section.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #14 - 04/02/18 at 12:34:51
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Straggler wrote on 04/02/18 at 09:33:43:
As to Stigma's point about low-rated players entering 9-round Opens, I asked my coach's advice about whether it was fair for me to do this. He said it wasn't really an issue, since I would be given a notionally higher rating for the purposes of any game against a norm-seeker, and anyway I was unlikely to meet one after the first round unless they had already blown their chances of a norm. Moreover, the entry fees for low-rated players are often steep: in a way, we are subsidising the stronger players.

My issue is not with individual ambitious players who choose and are allowed to play up in the top section. It's with tournaments where that's the only option for everyone, i.e. there are no sections. An important problem that I didn't mention with having a wide rating range in one group is the standard Swiss pairing system creates a ping-pong effect for anyone not rated at the very top or the very bottom: You alternate between much higher-rated and much lower-rated opponents throughout, only facing anything close to equal oppsition at the very end if at all. While the most interesting games are usually between players who are somewhat evenly matched.

About the norm issue: Let's say someone is rated around 2300 and hoping to fight for an IM norm. With everybody in the same group, she may have to face (and beat!) three lower-rated players before finally facing a titled player, and then that player may well be a 2600+ super-GM. While in a 2000+ group the same 2300 player may beat a lower-rated player in round 1 and then immediately face an IM or "normal" GM in round 2. You tell me which of these scenarios gives better norm chances... Counting lower-rated players as 2100 (or whatever the current regulations say) doesn't compensate nearly enough for this difference.
  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #13 - 04/02/18 at 12:32:18
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 04/02/18 at 12:03:23:
Do all the sections have to play the same number of rounds?


No, but in a one-room venue you do have to synchronise the round start times in order to minimise disruption and also to allow for announcements.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #12 - 04/02/18 at 12:03:23
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Do all the sections have to play the same number of rounds?
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #11 - 04/02/18 at 09:54:50
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Straggler wrote on 04/02/18 at 09:33:43:
So, if I've got this right, the options for an organiser of a two-day tournament are:

(1) 4 rounds, 4-hour sessions, open to all, FIDE rated

(2) 5 rounds, 3-hour sessions, open to all, not FIDE rated

(3) 5 rounds, 3-hour sessions, < 2200 only, FIDE rated.

I wonder why an organiser would choose option (3).


Speaking personally I can say that

1) this is an attractive format, and the only reason I stick with five rounds is that most players want to have the option to play all five games, and it represents value for money in that respect - and if they choose to play just four games they get some flexibility about which four games they play

2) not being FIDE rated is possible, but the evidence is that players are attracted by an event which is rated. Everything I organise, including blitz, is FIDE rated where it is practical

3) where I have organised FIDE rated Open events with a similar timetable, the number of players 2200 or over has been minimal.  On balance I think I gain more players by having this format than I lose by having an unrated or shorter event.

However the moment FIDE makes it easy to run Opens at this time control I will make my events Open.

Adam

  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #10 - 04/02/18 at 09:33:43
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So, if I've got this right, the options for an organiser of a two-day tournament are:

(1) 4 rounds, 4-hour sessions, open to all, FIDE rated

(2) 5 rounds, 3-hour sessions, open to all, not FIDE rated

(3) 5 rounds, 3-hour sessions, < 2200 only, FIDE rated.

I wonder why an organiser would choose option (3). Is it thought that option (1) would be unattractive to potential entrants, despite the prevalence of the Saturday night bye? And that option (2) would also be unattractive, despite the existence of successful tournaments which are not FIDE rated?

As to Stigma's point about low-rated players entering 9-round Opens, I asked my coach's advice about whether it was fair for me to do this. He said it wasn't really an issue, since I would be given a notionally higher rating for the purposes of any game against a norm-seeker, and anyway I was unlikely to meet one after the first round unless they had already blown their chances of a norm. Moreover, the entry fees for low-rated players are often steep: in a way, we are subsidising the stronger players.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #9 - 04/01/18 at 13:46:46
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In Hampstead, London, I run a FIDE rated weekend tournament every month.  We can't get the venue Friday night so in order to get 5 rounds in we make it Under 2200, Under 1900 and another section which is nationally rated.  This is because of the FIDE regulations mentioned, not because I have anything against players rated 2200 or above!  I would always have an Open given the choice (we often get 2200+ parents and coaches attending but not playing as a result).  I had been running these events for a while when I noticed that an organiser in Paris had been running events with a similar format for years, probably for the same reason!

Ironically a lot of players take a round three bye and have the evening off...
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #8 - 04/01/18 at 10:38:52
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AlanG wrote on 03/31/18 at 13:49:03:
What time controls are they using?


I've just had a look at a few and they are using 60 minutes + 30 seconds/move. So it does seem like they might indeed be keeping it limited in rating to avoid that strange FIDE rule.
What's funny is that some of them still call themselves the such-and-such 'Open'!
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #7 - 04/01/18 at 07:31:30
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This sounds like a really negative trend. I've heard of a few "amateur" tournaments with an upper rating limit before, but this should be an exception if it's to be allowed at all.

Organizers should realize that this way they are punishing the players who have spent time and effort to get really good at the game. That can only be bad for chess as a whole. And if there really are FIDE regulations that encourage this discrimination, they should be changed as soon as possible.

Tournaments split into graded sections is a different topic, and I'm all for that. It's annoying to invest time and money traveling to a large open and then having to spend time playing people 500 rating points or more below me. There's no real feeling of accomplishment in winning such games, and if I somehow fail to win, it's a disaster! This is why I've played the large Danish open Politiken Cup (now XtraCon iirc) only once: They insist on having everyone from beginner to super-GM in the same group.

I'm fine with playing lowly-rated opponents in more informal tournaments, local weekend events, etc. But I take international 9-round opens more seriously. I believe facing a low-rated opponent or two can even mess with people's chances of scoring title norms.

  

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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #6 - 04/01/18 at 07:13:27
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AlanG wrote on 03/31/18 at 15:33:20:
It looks like they're doing this so they can fit 3 games in one day on the Saturday.


In the UK, such tournaments aren't FIDE rated. No one with the possible exception of some in the ECF cares much. They remain part of the fully functioning English domestic grading system.

FIDE have introduced a fairly ridiculous concession, which evidently the FFE and French organisers don't want to apply. This is that you can have both players above 2200 and move rates faster than 90 30, provided games involving the higher rated players aren't rated.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #5 - 04/01/18 at 06:34:28
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/31/18 at 11:31:58:
I started looking around for some tournaments to play within a 200km or so radius of where I live, but unfortunately almost all of the ones that seemed interesting were restricted to players under 2200. Now, I remember GM Chabanon complaining to me that there were never any tournaments in Paris because they were all grading limited, but this is the first time I noticed this around my way.
Does anyone know why this is? Unfortunate if your rating is 2201, it's almost worth losing a couple of points just to be able to play again!

I experienced many times that lower rated players don't like to mix with higher rated players. Often they even tell me not to interfere in a post-mortem as it spoils their fun although I could easily teach them a few things.
Many/most organizers are rated below 2200 so behave with the same philosophy. They prefer to keep their tournament casual and to split the prizes between their own category of players.

I've seen several times players dropping on purpose their rating to get allowed to tournaments with a restricted rating. For me it it is one of the major reasons that I am against sectioned rating groups.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #4 - 03/31/18 at 20:33:22
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Really ?!  When I was playing OTB tournaments in Paris (long time ago), 60 min + 0 s. was FIDE rated if I remember well. When did it change?  Is there still a requirement without an increment?
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #3 - 03/31/18 at 15:33:20
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I looked at the schedules for a few sample tournaments in France and I see that they're using 60 mins + 30s which is the minimum requirement for FIDE rating with players below 2200 only.

It looks like they're doing this so they can fit 3 games in one day on the Saturday.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #2 - 03/31/18 at 14:48:20
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That's a bummer, and pretty strange.  You'd think that there must be some economic incentive, or at least not an economic incentive to have an Open section, as well.  I'd email some tournament organizers out of curiosity. 

Here in the U.S. all tournaments are graded or sectioned, but unless it's some kind of youth or scholastic event there is always an Open section.
  
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Re: Under 2200 Tournaments in France
Reply #1 - 03/31/18 at 13:49:03
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What time controls are they using? There are limits for FIDE rating:

"Where at least one of the players in the game has a rating 2200 or higher, each player must have a minimum of 120 minutes." (for 60 moves)

  
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Under 2200 Tournaments in France
03/31/18 at 11:31:58
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I started looking around for some tournaments to play within a 200km or so radius of where I live, but unfortunately almost all of the ones that seemed interesting were restricted to players under 2200. Now, I remember GM Chabanon complaining to me that there were never any tournaments in Paris because they were all grading limited, but this is the first time I noticed this around my way.
Does anyone know why this is? Unfortunate if your rating is 2201, it's almost worth losing a couple of points just to be able to play again!
  
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