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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3 (Read 6126 times)
IsaVulpes
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #13 - 06/26/18 at 23:19:44
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%20 is an encoded space. Unsure if there is a simple way to turn it back into one..

You should be able to just copy+paste the movelists though, at least for the ones that don't have multiple variations.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #12 - 06/26/18 at 22:16:41
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Hi, all of this looks quite interesting, but when I click the Dowload game in pgn format links, I just get some numeric gibberish such as
[Comment "auto-generated from "]
1.%20e4%20e5%202.%20Nf3%20Nc6%203.%20Bc4%20Nf6%204.%20Ng5%20d5%0A5.
Did I do something wrong, or is there a simple way to get normal pgn content ?
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #11 - 06/26/18 at 17:07:15
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/23/18 at 10:21:02:
So what led you to give up 8..Ng4? Not criticism, but when I looked it seemed pretty sturdy.

Not going to pretend I looked into this very in-depth, just had a first glance at it before I was directed towards 11..0-0; so by no means I will claim it's refuted or anything..
I just clicked around a bit (both in database and engine), and the positions didn't really strike me as something I'd want to get on the board.
I never really felt like there was all too much compensation, and a 'common feature' of the positions was that when I tried out natural moves, engine would approve and spit out 0.00, but after a few further steps, it suddenly decided the position was +0.5 after all.

Again, not gonna claim this is the end-all of analysis, and I'm certain if you go deeper / in different directions, you'll find something more comfortable, but when I stumbled over the other variation, I was immediatly "convinced", so I saw no reason to dig around more in this.

Here's a sample line in which the Engine is initially very happy, but then suddenly decides it's actually poor for Black (and I concur with its later assessment much moreso than with its former)


Here's the "mainline" of the variation according to database, with sidesteps by Black seeming worse rather than better, so something that might actually appear on the board:

I am not sure of the objective evaluation of this position (SF claims +0.6, but 7 games from here led to 6 draws, so it shouldn't be too bad in practical terms at least), but I also don't feel like I can reasonably expect to play for a win with a Rook against Bishop + 2 pawns. Feels like another of those endgame where you sometimes hold and sometimes don't, but there's not a lot of fun to be had.

Between the Na5 actually being stuck there for most of the game and having no easy way back into play, the variation often being concrete enough to invite mass trades into unfavourable(-seeming) endgames, and White actually still having the option of taking less trodden paths that also appear quite promising / harder to play for Black (such as the aforementioned 9.Nh3), I didn't end up being much of a fan.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #10 - 06/24/18 at 20:54:17
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/16/18 at 15:53:45:
Bologan's believes after 8..Nd5 9h4 "no longer works because of 9..Bc5 10 Ne4 Bb6".


In which publication did he say that?
  

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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #9 - 06/23/18 at 23:17:33
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Good evening!

IsaVulpes wrote on 06/21/18 at 03:16:33:
My initial clickings through 8. ..Ng4 didn't really inspire me, but a friend of mine pointed me towards another different path, namely 10. ..0-0!?

This looks fairly inspiring indeed.

I was thinking the move 19.gxf4 could be tried (eliminating stuff). Looks like no problems for black with some accuracy though Smiley


Have a nice night and thanks for some interesting analysis.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #8 - 06/23/18 at 10:21:02
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So what led you to give up 8..Ng4? Not criticism, but when I looked it seemed pretty sturdy.
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #7 - 06/22/18 at 21:49:33
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Fantastic original post and follow up analysis. Thank you for sharing!
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #6 - 06/21/18 at 03:16:33
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My initial clickings through 8. ..Ng4 didn't really inspire me, but a friend of mine pointed me towards another different path, namely 10. ..0-0!?
* * * * * * * *
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After 11.Re1 there are obviously loads of possible courses that the game may take here, but after some cursory analysis, I've grown quite fond of the top-scoring (..and least played; naturally 9 games make the "scoring" rather inaccurate, but still) database choice, 11. ..f5!?

I later found that Lokander had mentioned this as well (truly an excellent book!!), and we got to the same lines, but his conclusions are a bit different from mine..
Any additions / corrections / doublecheckings of the following would be more than welcome! The lines are quite wild  Cool

A general overview:


Now for the actual "critical" lines:


Overall from what I'm seeing so far, this is a lot tougher for White to handle than anything else, where he is forced into a tightrope path that is much simpler to play practically for me.
On top of that, it's a sideline within a sideline, so it's very unlikely that White actually has some deep preparation in this line  Cool

Feedback / a way to equalize in the very last line / anything welcome!
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #5 - 06/16/18 at 15:53:45
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Bologan's believes after 8..Nd5 9h4 "no longer works because of 9..Bc5 10 Ne4 Bb6".
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #4 - 06/16/18 at 14:50:37
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8....Nd5 9.h4! Qc7! by Ntirlis.

14.Nc3 is a good found and proves, there are still open minded people, who don't swallow everything.
  

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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #3 - 06/16/18 at 14:46:57
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I wasn't really aware that 8. ..Ng4 even exists so I shall have a look, but I did flip through Lokander, who mentions some concrete analysis in his book that makes him not believe in it (which I must just have skipped over previously, taking it at face value).

In general I enjoy all the positions after 8. ..Nd5 other than the specific line given in the OP, so I would prefer sticking with that if at all possible, but these certainly are entirely new waters, so perhaps I can find another love..
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #2 - 06/16/18 at 12:48:55
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I looked at Bologan and his recommendation is 8.. Ng4 then 9 Ne4 f5 10 Be2 h5 11h3 fxe4 12 hxg4 Bc5. Bologan writes he didn't choose 8... Nd5 because of 9 h4!
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #1 - 06/15/18 at 22:14:16
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You could try 8...Ng4 instead of 8...Nd5, which I'm pretty sure is what Bologan gives in his book on the Open Games (I don't have it with me so I can't check). If I remember correctly, with best play by both sides, the whole thing turns into a complete mess and it's murky enough that a stronger player can try to win it with Black. There's certainly plenty of scope for White to go wrong if he doesn't know it. There's a Stellwagen-L'Ami game from 2008 and Sivuk-Beliavsky from 2015 that you could look at. The former was a draw but Beliavsky won the latter against a 2500+ player.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
06/15/18 at 11:31:23
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Talking about this position:



This is obviously a rather critical line, Black now being down two pawns, but common literature on it is somehow *very* quiet.
- Sverre Johnsen gives 13. ..Re8 and follows this game for a bit https://lichess.org/AIMpRsAt/black#26 , calling it equal, which it may or may not be; but this looks/feels like a very poor Marshall endgame to me, where one holds sometimes and sometimes doesn't. Certainly I see very little chance of winning this pawn-down endgame, even against a significantly weaker player.
- Sverre Johnsen also offers https://lichess.org/451lHsWS#26 this line, calling it equal after move 21, but omitting that White's 19th (Be3) is seen as a rather large mistake by our silicone friend, which instead gives eg 19.Re8:+ Re8: 20.f4 c5 21.Nc3 cd4: 22.Ne4 Bb8 23.Ng3 Nc6 24.Bd2, and while we got one pawn back and obviously White's structure isn't great, we're still a pawn down and White managed to unravel his pieces (+0.8 at depth 22).
- Lokander notes that the whole line is critical, but still only mentions it in a sidenote (rather than a game of its own / at least having it as the mainline), offers 13. ..c5, and follows this game https://lichess.org/2vgLLhnu/black#26 for a bit, until he finds an improvement where Black sacrifices two Bishops and goes in for a perpetual check. Now that is theoretically fine of course, but in practical terms I cannot play this against someone lower rated than me, and it's also not something I will ever find over the board, so I'd have to memorize the entire variation, else I will just end up losing (similar to Mr.Urkedal.. actually, even the position that is 'a perpetual' I got kinda lost in, when I looked at it without a computer)
- Ntirlis makes a very good point *against* 13. ..Re8, gives 13. ..c5 like Lokander does, and goes on a bit about how computers tend to misevaluate this position badly, leading to wins for White even in correspondence. Now that to me sounds like something that should be covered in some detail.. but again he just gives it as a sidenote, and doesn't even cover 14.Nc3 for White at all (the clearly most natural move in the position & also Database top choice).

So now I sit here, three 1.e4 e5 books in hand, and not a single of them offers a really satisfactory solution to playing the 2 Knights in an Open Tournament.
Johnsen steers me straight into a bleh endgame, Lokander tells me to learn 20 moves by heart and then give a perpetual (in my last tournament a 1450 played this line against me; I can't give that guy a perpetual!), and Ntirlis doesn't mention the most common variation at all.

I'm perfectly fine playing a pawn down middlegame with sufficient compensation (as in other lines of the 2N); I'm also quite happy with an equal symmetrical position that still leaves some room to outplay a weaker player (like arises out of eg some forcing lines in my Qc2 Nimzo rep). But a perpetual obviously offers very little room for that  Wink , so I'd need something that actually keeps the game going..
An endgame that is "just a draw", but where White had to navigate some significant complications on the path (such as in the Marshall), is also acceptable to me - there I then just have to hope that a lower rated White player would be unable to handle the complications; but again, at the point of the Lokander-Perpetual, White just played the most natural moves in the position, so he may very well find them over the board.

The most logical first attempt for me was 13. ..c5 14.Nc3 Re8, attempting to go back into 13. ..Re8 lines, now that its "critical counter" (14.d4 15.d3) isn't possible anymore, as the Knight on c3 would obviously be attacked, but SF quickly spits out an almost +1 advantage after 15.Nc4 Nc4: 16.dc4: Bg4 17.Re8:+ Qe8: 18.Qf1 (in the same line after 13. ..Re8, Black would now play ..Be2, winning, but here the insertion of Nc3+..c5 clearly favours White)

The next most logical try after 13. ..c5 14.Nc3 (and only real one that I could even think of) would be 14. ..Bb7, but then not to follow up with ..Re8 after 15.b3.
Compi first line is the apparent novelty 15. ..Qf6, with the idea being that after 16.Nf3 Bf3: 17.Qf3: Qf3: 18.gf3: Nc6, White is still 2 pawns up and we have exchanged a bunch of pieces, but this time around his pawn structure is truly wrecked and he is still a bit away from unraveling; so Black can pressure the pawns early on, at least win one of them back, and then still hold a sizeable amount of initiative. Of course the problem here is we gave up the Bishop pair, so if that initiative ever dissipates, the endgames will again be a huge pain..
A sample way of how a game might continue (obviously no guarantee this is perfect play, I just quickly threw out some natural moves that didn't obviously blunder anything) here would be:

Where White retained his extra pawn, but Black's pieces are so active that the pawn doesn't do much, and at least White had to answer some questions on moves 19-25.
This appears quite playable, but obviously I am still not perfectly happy with it.

15. ..f5, with the idea of just starting a quick attack via Rf6-h6, might make some sense as well and appears like the most normal 'practical try', but the usual stone cold machine just calculates to an advantage with


So basically that leaves me with the question, what do/would you play against this 13.Ne5:?
Just one of the "incorrect" lines, in the hopes that White won't the correct path? This 13. ..c5 14.Nc3 Qf6 thing? Something entirely else, that I missed in my own analysis?
Or do you just say "Ok this variation is a draw, that's theoretically sufficient, and against a weaker player I don't go into the 2N at all but rather let him hang himself in the comparably quiet waters of 3. ..Bc5"? That at least is my current state, but I do kinda love the 2N aside from this single variation, so I would prefer to be able to keep playing it..

Any comments would be welcome Smiley
  
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