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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3 (Read 6082 times)
MicahSmith
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #28 - 02/22/19 at 22:41:17
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As for the original question, there is a Stockfish-AlphaZero game where after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Bd3 Nd5 9.Nf3 Bd6 10. 0-0 Nf4 11. Re1 Nxd3 12.cxd3 0-0 13. Nxe5 c5 14. Nc3 Bb7 15. b3 Re8 16.Nc4, AlphaZero played 16...Nxc4 and won.

Stockfish met 16...Nxc4 with 17.Rxe8+.

Strangely the book "Game Changer" says that after 16...Nxc4, 17.dxc4(?) Rxe1+(?) 18.Qxe1 Bxh2+ 19. Kxh2 Qh4+ 20. Kg1 Bxg2 occurred in both correspondence games which reached this position and resulted in a draw by repetition a few moves later which which can't be right as 17...Qh4 simply wins for black (I'm assuming those correspondence games used the order 16...Rxe1 17.Qxe1 Nxc4 18.dxc4).
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #27 - 07/13/18 at 23:25:14
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I thought maybe the outside pawn for White would be trouble but the opposite bishops seem to give Black enough counterplay to hold. I think there are a couple of moves Black has to find but it is possible to get a draw.
I agree it wouldn't be much fun to play for Black, White can press for a long while.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #26 - 07/13/18 at 21:17:33
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After 28...Qd6 29. Qxd6 Bxd6 30. Rd1 Nb7 31. Bxa7 I am very skeptical that Black has enough compensation for the pawn.

You are right that the position after 34. Rd6 does not seem too bad for Black, at least at first. White has the very strong threat of Nd5-Nf6+, so Black has to play 34...Ne5 to hold his pieces together. Then 35. Bxa7 Nf3+ 36. Kf2 Be8 37. Bc5 is a natural continuation. Perhaps 37...Rb7 38. Rb6 Rxb6 39. Bxb6 Nxh4 40. Kg3 Nf3 41. h3 Ne5 42. hxg4 Kf7 43. Bd4 Nd3 44. Nxd3 cxd3 gives Black drawing chances due to the opposite colored bishops?

Either way, the lines after 34. Rd6 don't seem to be fun for Black, even if there is play left in the position. I agree that it would be incredibly difficult for White to play so accurately for so long when faced with Black's early initative. (Unless, of course, the White player has studied this thread.)

On the other hand, I would like to point out that, from a purely theoretical perspective, 14...f4 seems to equalize pretty easily. To my eyes, the piece vs. 3 pawns endgame that arises is balanced. I don't see how White can set problems there, at least.
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #25 - 07/13/18 at 14:36:31
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28...Qd6 is an alternative, but I don't know if it is an improvement. I agree White is better after 34 Rd6, I think there is a lot of play left, and it is hard, for me, to see a clear win for white.
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #24 - 07/13/18 at 11:40:26
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Isa I think White has a more difficult time developing after 9..Ng4, his black square bishop specifically and his q-side generally are hard to put on good squares. Black's center really has a cramping effect, and I always like space.
  
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Syzygy
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #23 - 07/12/18 at 17:50:14
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Is 23. Kg1 really the only way for White to fight for an advantage? What about 23. Qc1, threatening to trap the Black Queen?

After the relatively forced line 23...Re8 24. Bf2 Rxe1+ 25. Qxe1 Bd7 26. Kg1 Re8 27. Qc1 Be7 28. Qh6 Bxh4 29. gxh4 Nc6 30. Rd1 Qf5 31. Nd5 Re6 32. Qf4 Qxf4 33. Nxf4 Re7 34. Rd6, it appears that white has a sizeable advantage.

Am I missing anything in this line?
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #22 - 06/30/18 at 01:06:56
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Oh Bologan goes 8... Ng4 9 Ne4 f5 10 Be2 h5 11 h3 fxe4 12 hxg4 Bc5 then he branches between 13 Nc3 and 13 b4, I looked a bit at b4 because it seems after Nc3 Black has some pressure, but I don't think this line is that much stronger than the Nd5 ones. I think White gets his development a bit quicker after Nd5 than Ng4 but again there is not a lot more, I think.
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #21 - 06/29/18 at 22:32:51
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Oh heh, I was referring to the 8..Ng4 bit.
I certainly wasn't exhaustive in looking at it, but neither the supposed mainline (according to database), nor a variety of white deviations (such as the direct nh3) looked very convincing to me, so I was curious what Bologan gives / why you felt it to be sturdy
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #20 - 06/29/18 at 11:47:16
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I looked, and Stockfish agrees about Kg1 being the only real try, but I don't like the position very much for white, and like you said I don't know how much of this would ever be seen in an OTB game. I agree about the Lokander book being a very good book. I thought maybe 18 Rf1 was a better try, but it ended up looking worse than your line. Stockfish evaluated your line with a small plus for white, but like + .3 so not really earthshaking and there is a lot of play in that position imo.  I do think from looking at this a bit White has to give at least one pawn back to get untangled, maybe both.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #19 - 06/28/18 at 15:14:58
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/28/18 at 11:18:56:
You are welcome Pg 467 is the scene of the crime.

What does he / do you think about the minibit of "analysis" I posted? Didn't look deep enough / suggested poor moves for Black / ended in the same position but with a different evaluation?
  
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #18 - 06/28/18 at 11:18:56
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You are welcome Pg 467 is the scene of the crime.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #17 - 06/27/18 at 16:38:09
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Pawnpusher wrote on 06/27/18 at 09:54:45:
Bologan's Black Weapons


Thanks.
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #16 - 06/27/18 at 09:54:45
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Bologan's Black Weapons
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #15 - 06/27/18 at 00:57:13
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IsaVulpes wrote on 06/26/18 at 23:19:44:
  is an encoded space. Unsure if there is a simple way to turn it back into one..

https://textmechanic.com/text-tools/basic-text-tools/find-and-replace-text/ This page seems to be able to do the trick:

In the first box, type "%20", in second " ", and in the third the PGN text with the %20s, then hit "Find and Replace Text".
After that, replace the "%20" in the first field with "%0A", and press the "Find and Replace Text" button again.

That still retains a slight bit of encoded gibberish from ! / ? / ?! / !? in the notation, but those should be easy enough to remove manually.

E: And yeah, if you don't see the embedded board with the variations at all, you'd need to use a browser that has flash enabled.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Playing for a Win against 13.Ne5: in 8.Bd3
Reply #14 - 06/27/18 at 00:38:25
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@parisestmagique - You need a browser with flash enabled, or, as IsaVulpes suggested, you will need to unencode the url to get at the pgn.
  
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