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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to play against the benoni? (Read 14186 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #48 - 12/24/19 at 21:00:03
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Happy Christmas and New Year to you too, Jupp, and happy holidays to all my Chesspub friends!

« Last Edit: 12/24/19 at 22:45:40 by ReneDescartes »  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #47 - 12/23/19 at 09:12:56
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Thank you ReneDescartes.

All the usual wishes till the start of the next year to everybody here!
  

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ReneDescartes
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #46 - 12/23/19 at 02:11:51
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It's true that I considered 6.c3 only after 5.Bb2 (mistakenly adding dots as if they were Black moves, by the way). With 5.c3, White does gain the possibility of taking the e-pawn by chasing the Black Nc6 away with b5.

1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.a3 Nc6 5.c3 d5. If White tries it, though, he will regret it: 6.b5?! Na5 7.Nxe5 dxc3 and  8.Qa4 (8.b6 is similar: Nc6 9.Qa4+ Bd7 10.Nxd7 axb6! and 11..bxc6), Bc5 9.b6+ Nc6 10.Nxc6 Qd7! with a typical pin motif, gaining time to retain the gambit pawn (11.Nxc3 bxc6 and ...Bxb6).

White really must use a somewhat insipid queen check from a4 in this line, otherwise Black develops a huge initiative--one way is with ...d4 and Be6, sometimes in conjunction with ...Rc8. For example, 8.Nxc3? d4 and Black must grovel with 9.Nb1 (not 9.Na4?? Be6 threatening both Bb3, forking queen and knight, and Nb3 followed by ...Qa5+, forking king and knight; nor 9.Ne4?? Qd5 forking the knights). Or 8.Bf4? g5 (planning ...Bg7) 9. Bg3 d4 10.e3 Be6 11.exd4 Rc8 -+.

Instead of trying to win the e-pawn by kicking the Nc6, just 6 cxd4 is a better try for White; I would consider this the main line. But Black retains a big advantage with 6...e4!, giving back the pawn for a superior reversed-French center. In the real French, the French side has exceptional piece coordination, but here the opposite is the case. After 7.Ne5, Black keeps more central piece control with normal development: simply 7...Bd6 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.e3 (or 9.Nc3 Ne7), when Black can choose between 9...Ne7 heading for f5 and 9...Qg5 (in typical anti-French fashion), keeps the upper hand.

Perhaps even stronger after 7.Ne5 in the above line is the immediate minority attack 7...a5, but there's no need to mess with it; it's much more complicated and White has three or four equally good (bad) continuations.

All these lines issue in a rather large opening advantage for Black.
« Last Edit: 12/24/19 at 00:56:58 by ReneDescartes »  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #45 - 12/22/19 at 03:48:41
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The variation 1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.a3 Nc6 5.c3 is not in your reply #29, that I can see, although Jupp53 in reply #38 has 5.c3 as if you gave this move.
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #44 - 12/21/19 at 23:29:28
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I'm confused. What is the exact line ending in 5.c3 that I didn't consider?
  
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Gambit
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #43 - 12/19/19 at 22:58:42
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Diemer made many contributions to chess. There is the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3; the Alapin-Diemer Gambit, 1 d4 e6 2 e4 d5 3 Be3 dxe4 4 Nd2 Nf6 5 f3; and the Diemer-Duhm, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 e6 3 c4.

Diemer also played the Herrstrom Gambit 1 Nf3 g5.

Fischer's politics left much to be desired, but he was a world-class player. Same thing with Diemer. His politics left much to be desired, but his chess play was very interesting.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #42 - 10/02/19 at 16:52:34
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Now I see your point. Thank you.

The lines after 5.c3 are indeed interesting for white against an unprepared patzer like I am. So the next step in the discussion should be finding a clear line for black provoking white to compromise his position further and white lines leaving it unclear.
  

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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #41 - 10/02/19 at 02:10:11
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/02/19 at 00:25:22:
Why now 3... Nc6 if 3... e5 is possible and imo the move of choice?  Huh 

Simply to help locate the relevant game in the mass of stuff that Gambit posted in #25. He did give 3...e5 at B1, but after 4.a3 black played 4...d6. 3...Nc6 4.a3 e5 was at B4.

Jupp53 wrote on 10/02/19 at 00:25:22:
There are many lines from Gambit not directly addressed. Why should some care for most of the games he cited if interested in theoretical value of this stuff?  Roll Eyes

I don't care for most of the games, but I do care for the game which intersects with ReneDescartes's analysis. It's not fair to ignore something already posted if it is relevant, even if it is obscured by a mass of irrelevant stuff.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #40 - 10/02/19 at 00:25:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/01/19 at 03:02:19:
Well, via 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4 Nc6 4.a3 e5


Why now 3... Nc6 if 3... e5 is possible and imo the move of choice?  Huh  There are many lines from Gambit not directly addressed. Why should some care for most of the games he cited if interested in theoretical value of this stuff?  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #39 - 10/01/19 at 03:02:19
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/29/19 at 23:58:21:
What ReneDescartes has written seems sufficient for black:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.a3
    ( 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 5.c3
        ( 5.Nd2 $2 Nf6 6.Rb1
            ( 6.Bb2 Ne4 7.Nf3 Qf6 8.Bxd4 Nxd2 )
        6...Ba5 )
    5...dxc3 6.Qb3 Qe7 7.a3 Bc5 8.Nd3 d6 9.Nxc3 Nf6 )
4...Nc6 5.c3
    ( 5.Bb2 d5 )
    ( 5.e3 dxe3 6.fxe3 d5 )
*

Anyone disagreeing?

Well, via 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4 Nc6 4.a3 e5, Gambit gave a game Zilbermints - Diamond, 1996, with 5.c3! (his exclam) that ReneDescartes did not directly address.
  • Diamond played 5...Nf6.
  • I guess ReneDescartes wanted to play 5...dxc3 but then 6.Nxc3 and there is a hole on d5. So white gets something for the pawn, precisely how much compensation is of course open to debate.
  • One curious possibility is 5...a6!? tit for tat 6.cxd4 e4 7.Ne5 (7.d5 Nxb4 8.Ng5 Qf6) 7...Ne7 with a tense position.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #38 - 09/29/19 at 23:58:21
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What ReneDescartes has written seems sufficient for black:



Anyone disagreeing?
  

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Gambit
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #37 - 09/28/19 at 20:28:11
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Diemer's political views leave much to be desired. That being said, his chess was rather interesting and adventuresome. Same with Fischer, whose political views were radical and anti-Semitic. However, Fischer's chess games are still studied.

All this being said, how about you get away from the computer? Sit at the chessboard and try the Zilbermints Benoni in an over-the-board match. The move order can be 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4 or more frequently, 1 Nf3 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 b4.  See what happens.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #36 - 12/02/18 at 12:10:12
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Gambit wrote on 11/27/18 at 20:08:25:
Bibs,

These days, even masters play the Grob. You are welcome to check ChessBase for games. There you will see games where 2200 - 2400 level players play.

As for the  Tamarkin Counter-Gambit, I have already posted games earlier.


Well (going by your severly faulty logic) why doesn't everybody play 1.e4 e5 2. Qh5 in regular games (there is actually a thread about it here)?
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #35 - 12/01/18 at 17:21:32
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You'd be surprised how effective the Grob can be at club level for mainly psychological reasons.  I've faced it several times with Black and have had a significant minus score, often as a result of getting complacent because "we all know it isn't really that good".  My opponents tended to deviate from established lines with 2.e3 or 2.h3, not letting me get into lines such as 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 h5, or 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8.  Some players develop normally but make the mistake of castling kingside too early and presenting White with a ready-made kingside pawn storm.  1.d4 c5 2.b4 could have the same psychological effect, though if White wants to meet 1.d4 c5 with a gambit, 2.e4 is a rather sounder way of doing so - Stockfish 9 assesses this transposition into the Morra as one of White's five best moves in the position, though not as good as 2.d5.

Stockfish 9 also offers 3...d5 as a good alternative against 1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3, so I took a closer look at this line.  One idea is that 4.Nxd4?! can be met by 4...e5 with a strong central pawn roller.  White did win against it in the Zilbermints Benoni tournament with 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qb2 in Blankenberg-Sardi, when 5...a6 6.e3 e5 7.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ 9.Nxd2 gave White a decent game, but there is no need to voluntarily trade the e-pawn for the white b-pawn.  Black has the edge after 5...e6 or 5...Nf6.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #34 - 11/27/18 at 20:08:25
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Bibs,

These days, even masters play the Grob. You are welcome to check ChessBase for games. There you will see games where 2200 - 2400 level players play.

As for the  Tamarkin Counter-Gambit, I have already posted games earlier.
  
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