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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What to play against the benoni? (Read 11265 times)
Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #42 - 10/02/19 at 16:52:34
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Now I see your point. Thank you.

The lines after 5.c3 are indeed interesting for white against an unprepared patzer like I am. So the next step in the discussion should be finding a clear line for black provoking white to compromise his position further and white lines leaving it unclear.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #41 - 10/02/19 at 02:10:11
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Jupp53 wrote on 10/02/19 at 00:25:22:
Why now 3... Nc6 if 3... e5 is possible and imo the move of choice?  Huh 

Simply to help locate the relevant game in the mass of stuff that Gambit posted in #25. He did give 3...e5 at B1, but after 4.a3 black played 4...d6. 3...Nc6 4.a3 e5 was at B4.

Jupp53 wrote on 10/02/19 at 00:25:22:
There are many lines from Gambit not directly addressed. Why should some care for most of the games he cited if interested in theoretical value of this stuff?  Roll Eyes

I don't care for most of the games, but I do care for the game which intersects with ReneDescartes's analysis. It's not fair to ignore something already posted if it is relevant, even if it is obscured by a mass of irrelevant stuff.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #40 - 10/02/19 at 00:25:22
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 10/01/19 at 03:02:19:
Well, via 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4 Nc6 4.a3 e5


Why now 3... Nc6 if 3... e5 is possible and imo the move of choice?  Huh  There are many lines from Gambit not directly addressed. Why should some care for most of the games he cited if interested in theoretical value of this stuff?  Roll Eyes
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #39 - 10/01/19 at 03:02:19
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Jupp53 wrote on 09/29/19 at 23:58:21:
What ReneDescartes has written seems sufficient for black:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5 4.a3
    ( 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 5.c3
        ( 5.Nd2 $2 Nf6 6.Rb1
            ( 6.Bb2 Ne4 7.Nf3 Qf6 8.Bxd4 Nxd2 )
        6...Ba5 )
    5...dxc3 6.Qb3 Qe7 7.a3 Bc5 8.Nd3 d6 9.Nxc3 Nf6 )
4...Nc6 5.c3
    ( 5.Bb2 d5 )
    ( 5.e3 dxe3 6.fxe3 d5 )
*

Anyone disagreeing?

Well, via 1.d4 c5 2.Nf3 cxd4 3.b4 Nc6 4.a3 e5, Gambit gave a game Zilbermints - Diamond, 1996, with 5.c3! (his exclam) that ReneDescartes did not directly address.
  • Diamond played 5...Nf6.
  • I guess ReneDescartes wanted to play 5...dxc3 but then 6.Nxc3 and there is a hole on d5. So white gets something for the pawn, precisely how much compensation is of course open to debate.
  • One curious possibility is 5...a6!? tit for tat 6.cxd4 e4 7.Ne5 (7.d5 Nxb4 8.Ng5 Qf6) 7...Ne7 with a tense position.
  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #38 - 09/29/19 at 23:58:21
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What ReneDescartes has written seems sufficient for black:



Anyone disagreeing?
  

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Gambit
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #37 - 09/28/19 at 20:28:11
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Diemer's political views leave much to be desired. That being said, his chess was rather interesting and adventuresome. Same with Fischer, whose political views were radical and anti-Semitic. However, Fischer's chess games are still studied.

All this being said, how about you get away from the computer? Sit at the chessboard and try the Zilbermints Benoni in an over-the-board match. The move order can be 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4 or more frequently, 1 Nf3 c5 2 d4 cxd4 3 b4.  See what happens.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #36 - 12/02/18 at 12:10:12
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Gambit wrote on 11/27/18 at 20:08:25:
Bibs,

These days, even masters play the Grob. You are welcome to check ChessBase for games. There you will see games where 2200 - 2400 level players play.

As for the  Tamarkin Counter-Gambit, I have already posted games earlier.


Well (going by your severly faulty logic) why doesn't everybody play 1.e4 e5 2. Qh5 in regular games (there is actually a thread about it here)?
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #35 - 12/01/18 at 17:21:32
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You'd be surprised how effective the Grob can be at club level for mainly psychological reasons.  I've faced it several times with Black and have had a significant minus score, often as a result of getting complacent because "we all know it isn't really that good".  My opponents tended to deviate from established lines with 2.e3 or 2.h3, not letting me get into lines such as 1.g4 e5 2.Bg2 h5, or 1.g4 d5 2.Bg2 Bxg4 3.c4 dxc4 4.Bxb7 Nd7 5.Bxa8 Qxa8.  Some players develop normally but make the mistake of castling kingside too early and presenting White with a ready-made kingside pawn storm.  1.d4 c5 2.b4 could have the same psychological effect, though if White wants to meet 1.d4 c5 with a gambit, 2.e4 is a rather sounder way of doing so - Stockfish 9 assesses this transposition into the Morra as one of White's five best moves in the position, though not as good as 2.d5.

Stockfish 9 also offers 3...d5 as a good alternative against 1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3, so I took a closer look at this line.  One idea is that 4.Nxd4?! can be met by 4...e5 with a strong central pawn roller.  White did win against it in the Zilbermints Benoni tournament with 4.Qxd4 Nc6 5.Qb2 in Blankenberg-Sardi, when 5...a6 6.e3 e5 7.Nxe5 Bxb4+ 8.Bd2 Bxd2+ 9.Nxd2 gave White a decent game, but there is no need to voluntarily trade the e-pawn for the white b-pawn.  Black has the edge after 5...e6 or 5...Nf6.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #34 - 11/27/18 at 20:08:25
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Bibs,

These days, even masters play the Grob. You are welcome to check ChessBase for games. There you will see games where 2200 - 2400 level players play.

As for the  Tamarkin Counter-Gambit, I have already posted games earlier.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #33 - 11/19/18 at 09:50:37
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The only question after the reply 3...e5 is how much worse white is after only three moves. Trumps the Grob.
It's not an opening to recommend to the neighbourhood kids. Or indeed to anyone who is not a fan of self-combusting.

One to avoid. Next.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #32 - 11/19/18 at 08:02:27
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I see you are looking at the original line, 1 d4 c5 2 b4. These days I modified it slightly, 1 d4 c5 2 Nf3 cxd4 3 b4.
  
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #31 - 11/06/18 at 02:55:16
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@ReneDescartes, your moves are very logical and I would be happy to play that way as black, but the game is not over. 1. d4 c5 2. b4 cxd4 3. Nf3 e5 4. Nxe5 Bxb4+ 5. c3 dxc3 6. Qb3 Qe7 Stockfish suggests 7. a3 is -0.8. White is getting one pawn back and has some slight compensation for the remaining pawn minus.
Edited:
I should clarify my thinking here. Indeed the game may not be over, in the sense that certainly I could not win this against Stockfish, and there's a fair chance I might not win it against an evenly matched human. But the analysis is over, in the sense that even if said human held the white position, they would be daft to repeat the line knowing that the same position would be reached.

@kylemeister, I also saw that quote, which seemed a little ironic to me, considering some of the drek Schiller advocated in Gambit Opening Repertoire for White. Of course 2. b4 is bad, but in a way it is also good, because it is not as bad as it looks at first glance. I pushed the pieces around a bit, thinking "there must be some simple refutation", but it was not too easy. And some players become completely unhinged when their opponent seems to be "getting away with" a bad move. Don't forget the etymology of "gambit".
Edited:
The funny thing about 2.b4?! is that it is the second-worst move in the position, after 2.Bh6??, and yet 2.b4 might not lose by force. I could go into a long spiel about why gambits work, or a different spiel about why they don't, but I suspect many here know it all already. In the end it is the moves that convince.
« Last Edit: 11/06/18 at 03:59:04 by an ordinary chessplayer » 
Reason: Clarification. 
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #30 - 11/06/18 at 00:18:51
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"But such a fluke event can't justify White's silly opening." -- Watson and Schiller (Taming Wild Chess Openings) on Zilbermints-Neplokh
  
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ReneDescartes
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #29 - 11/05/18 at 23:01:00
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In this "gambit," White gives himself, not his opponent, development problems, a central inferiority, or both.

1.d4 c5 2.b4 cxd4 3.Nf3 e5. Now the stated 4.a3 grants Black a big central preponderance. Black can just develop and support the d-pawn with 4...Nc6: White won't be able to dislodge the knight with b5 because of ...Qa5+ and Qxb4. If White now develops according to his evident plan with 5.Bb2, Black plays 5...d5 with a monstrous center. White can reduce it to a merely ideal center with ...c3 or ...e3, but then Black develops very smoothly with ...Nf6, ..Be6 and ...Bd6 in some order, and White isn't even ahead in development for his center pawn!

More sane is capturing the e-pawn with 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+, but then by responding to the check White gives himself terrible problems developing. 5.Nd2 planning to fianchetto doesn't work because  5...Nf6 6. Bb2 Ne4 (the big issue) and 7.Nf3 (forced) is met by Qf6! when the Nf3 is overloaded.

On the other hand, after 5.Bd2 Bc5, how is White going to develop his queen's knight? 6.Nd3 Bb6 (or 6...d6 straightening out the pawn structure) and again ...Nf6 followed by ...Ne4, Nxd2 and ...Ba5 is a dominant threat.

So after 4.Nxe5 Bxb4+, White has to block with 5.c3 dxc3. White can't play Nxc3 to gain time. He can try 5.Qb3 to support Nxc3, but 5...Qe7 defends the bishop and forces White's knight back, losing any time he will gain. Again, White be ahead neither in development nor in the center.

These long lines from rapid games between non-masters are useless after move 4, 5, or 6. But I like the way Gambit managed to slip the words "Zilbermints Benoni" into Chessbase by naming a tournament that.
« Last Edit: 11/06/18 at 10:48:03 by ReneDescartes »  
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Jupp53
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Re: What to play against the benoni?
Reply #28 - 11/03/18 at 00:30:04
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Mtal wrote on 11/01/18 at 20:49:49:
[quote author=1D3B3738332E5A0 link=1531022829/24#24 date=1535784547]The Zilbermints Benoni: 1 d4 c5 2 b4!
Part One:  Its Origin  and  2...cxb4 3 a3
       

The Benoni Defense is a solid opening with a well-established reputation that attracts players of all classes. It can be equally suitable for positional and tactical play, and has been used  by such players as Fischer, Karpov, and other leading grandmasters.  From a White point of view, the Benoni Defense is a way to avoid the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit and to chicken out into closed positions.


A personal remark. This made me laugh and happy for more than a minute. So thank you for that. Chaqu'un à son goût. This has to be translated that everyone has the right to find its own way to hell.

One question: Ij you want to take the content following after such a remark taken seriously, why don't you hide it. Is it a sign for a secret religious circle? You could surely choose something better.
Cheesy Grin Roll Eyes
  

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