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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6.Be3 e6 7.a3 (Read 7593 times)
gsgs
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #6 - 08/02/18 at 06:43:43
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kylemeister wrote on 08/01/18 at 18:13:52:
One thing is, it appeared in the April update (yes, as a Scheveningen --B80).


maybe you mean 6.a3 ? That's what I found here.
Scheveninger Keres Attack is considered pretty good for White
by Stockfish. a3 would be suboptimal there but still good for white
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #5 - 08/02/18 at 06:36:58
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yes, computers often play (7.a3 Be7 8.Qe2)  8...e5 (or 9...e5)
humans in Blitz rarely play it.

Here are 20 games eith it asmFish - Komodo , Houdini
20 moves only , TCEC-like time control

[that didn't work ,
Sorry, you are not allowed to post messages containing active links to websites or images before you have posted 15 normal messages. ]

Code
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 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Be3 e6 7. a3 Be7


01, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4  d4 13.O-O-O O-O 14.  Qf3 Nc6 15. Bc4 Rc8 16. Nd5 Bd6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Kb1 Bxf4 19. Qxf4 Rcd8 20. g4 Qd6   a-k,52,24
07, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 Nc6 13.O-O-O  d4 14.  Qf3 O-O 15. Bc4 Rc8 16. Nd5 Bd6 17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18. Kb1 Ne5 19. Bxe5 Bxe5 20. Bd3 Qc6   a-k,30,26
06, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 O-O 13.  Qf3 Nc6 14.O-O-O  d4 15. Bc4 h6 16. Rhe1 Rc8 17. Ba2 Qb6 18. Ne4 Rfd8 19. Qg3 Nxe4 20. Rxe4 Bf6    k-a,21,28
04, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O  e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. f4 exf4 13. Bxf4  d4 14. Qf3  Nc6 15. Bc4 h6 16. Rhe1 Rc8 17. Ba2 Qb6 18. Ne4 Rfd8 19. Qg3 Nxe4 20. Rxe4 Bf6    k-a,22,19
05, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. f4 exf4 12. Bxf4 Nc6 13.O-O-O  d4 14.   g4 O-O 15.  g5 Nd5 16. Nxd5 Qxd5 17. f6 Bxa3 18. bxa3 Rfe8 19. Bg2 Qa2 20. Qd3 Na5   a-k,00,00

03, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4 13. Ne4 Nbd7 14. Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. Qe4 O-O-O 17. Rd3 Qd6 18. Rb3 Qd5 19. Bd3 Qxe4 20. Bxe4 Rd7 a-k,35,08
09, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. exf5 d5 11. Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4 13. Ne4 Nbd7 14. Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16. h4 O-O-O 17. g4 h6 18. Bg2 Rd7 19. Rh3 Qc5 20. Qe4 Qe7      a-k,23,36

02, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. Bg5 d4 13. Bxf6 Bxf6 14. Ne4 Nd7 15. h4 Rc8 16. g4 Be7 17. g5 f6 18. Kb1 Kh8 19. Bg2 Nb6 20. gxf6 Bxf6           k-a,42,25
10, 8. Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10. Nf5 Bxf5 11. exf5 d5 12. Bg5 d4 13. Bxf6 Bxf6 14. Ne4 Be7 15. g4 Nd7 16. h4 Rc8 17. g5 f6 18. Kb1 Kh8 19. Bg2 Nc5 20. Nxc5 Rxc5 ˙         k-a,35,55

08, 8. Qe2  e5 9. Nb3  Be6 10. f3 Nbd7 11. g4 Nc5 12. Nxc5 dxc5 13. h4 b5 14. Qf2 Qc7 15.O-O-O b4 16. axb4 cxb4 17. Nd5 Bxd5 18. exd5 O-O 19. h5 b3 20. Kb1 Qxc2+       k-a,00,00
                 (Nf5)                                                                                                                                                  --------------
                                                                                                                                                                        26,   22


01, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 d4   13.O-O-O O-O 14.Qf3 Nc6   15.Bc4 Rc8    16.Nd5 Bd6   17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Kb1 Bxf4  19.Qxf4 Rcd8 20.g4 Qd6     a-k,52,24
02, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.Bg5 d4    13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne4 Nd7   15.h4 Rc8     16.g4 Be7    17.g5 f6      18.Kb1 Kh8   19.Bg2 Nb6   20.gxf6 Bxf6  k-a,42,25
03, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4  13.Ne4 Nbd7  14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.Qe4 O-O-O 17.Rd3 Qd6    18.Rb3 Qd5   19.Bd3 Qxe4  20.Bxe4 Rd7   a-k,35,08
04, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.f4 exf4   13.Bxf4 d4   14.Qf3 Nc6   15.Bc4 h6     16.Rhe1 Rc8  17.Ba2 Qb6    18.Ne4 Rfd8  19.Qg3 Nxe4  20.Rxe4 Bf6   k-a,21,28
05, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 Nc6  13.O-O-O d4  14.g4 O-O    15.g5 Nd5     16.Nxd5 Qxd5 17.f6 Bxa3    18.bxa3 Rfe8 19.Bg2 Qa2   20.Qd3 Na5    a-k,00,00
06, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 O-O  13.Qf3 Nc6   14.O-O-O d4  15.Bc4 h6     16.Rhe1 Rc8  17.Ba2 Qb6    18.Ne4 Rfd8  19.Qg3 Nxe4  20.Rxe4 Bf6   k-a,22,19
07, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.f4 exf4 12.Bxf4 Nc6  13.O-O-O d4  14.Qf3 O-O   15.Bc4 Rc8    16.Nd5 Bd6   17.Nxf6+ Qxf6 18.Kb1 Ne5   19.Bxe5 Bxe5 20.Bd3 Qc6    a-k,30,26
08, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nb3 Be6  10.f3 Nbd7  11.g4 Nc5  12.Nxc5 dxc5 13.h4 b5     14.Qf2 Qc7   15.O-O-O b4   16.axb4 cxb4 17.Nd5 Bxd5   18.exd5 O-O  19.h5 b3     20.Kb1 Qxc2+  k-a,00,00
09, 8.Qe2 e5  9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5  11.Bg5 Qb6 12.O-O-O d4  13.Ne4 Nbd7  14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.Nxf6+ Bxf6 16.h4 O-O-O  17.g4 h6      18.Bg2 Rd7   19.Rh3 Qc5   20.Qe4 Qe7    a-k,23,36
10, 8.Qe2 O-O 9.O-O-O e5 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 d5 12.Bg5 d4    13.Bxf6 Bxf6 14.Ne4 Be7   15.g4 Nd7     16.h4 Rc8    17.g5 f6      18.Kb1 Kh8   19.Bg2 Nc5   20.Nxc5 Rxc5  k-a,35,55


 




  
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mn
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #4 - 08/01/18 at 19:22:40
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At a cursory glance 7...Be7 8 Qe2 e5!? looks alright for Black to me - 9 Nf5 Bxf5 10 ef5 d5 etc., and if 9 Nb3, a key point is that, compared to the English Attack, White has to worry about ...Rc8xc3 still.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #3 - 08/01/18 at 18:13:52
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One thing is, it appeared in the April update (yes, as a Scheveningen --B80).
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #2 - 08/01/18 at 17:48:42
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gsgs wrote on 08/01/18 at 07:23:04:
I was a bit concerned to post this here, because there are so few computer-engine
analyses here. These are maybe in "competition" to human analyses
and not gladly seen here ?!? Although obviously more qualified and powerful these days.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Computer analysis is gladly seen here, but often it will be analysis guided by human judgement. Many strong corr. players have posted here over the years.

Be aware that even when posters don't state it explicitly, they will very often have checked their analysis with an engine. For many that may even be taken for granted these days and not worth mentioning - in fact people sometimes add some words of caution when they're suggesting a line without having had access to an engine first. But how long people have analyzed and on what hardware probably varies a lot.

I don't know much about the Najdorf or Scheveningen, but my immediate reaction to 7.a3 is the same one as bragesjo's. A bit sceptical, but I am willing to be persuaded it's good if you can back it up!
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #1 - 08/01/18 at 07:50:38
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I think your are over generalsing Najdrof theory. I think that Bg5 is not in fashion becouse of all theory one must know by heart even in sidelines. GM Repertour book went for 6 Bg5 and thats a theory heavy book (I have not read it).

Some other new white repertour books went for 6 h3, a modern cutting edge line.

Playing 1 e4 went for 6 f3 with the idea 7 Be3 but ruling out the move Ng4 that is a popular reply after 6 Be3 and in many positions the author writes that computers think that position is equal becouse that position is complicated mess but in correspondence chess white keeps winning game after game in that position.

I am also sceptical about a3 as a good move, it gives blacks b pawn a target in cases white castles long.
« Last Edit: 08/01/18 at 09:54:42 by bragesjo »  
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6.Be3 e6 7.a3
08/01/18 at 07:23:04
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I was a bit concerned to post this here, because there are so few computer-engine
analyses here. These are maybe in "competition" to human analyses
and not gladly seen here ?!? Although obviously more qualified and powerful these days.

I had been interested in opening theory when I was active last century, especially
Sicilian Najdorf, so I checked this with Stockfish now, as I became interested in chess again.
The first surprise was, that 6.Bg5 is no longer considered good, since poisened pawn
is an almost forced draw.
Other 6th moves were also considered ~equal chances, e.g. 6.Be3,e5,Nb3,Be6,f3,Be7 etc.
But 6...e6 is more interesting, sharper, Kasparov played it etc.

So, here comes the real surprise ...
Stockfish thinks 7.a3 ! is best after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 e6 .
I examined and analysed this a lot, mainly with Stockfish/asmFish, and I agree.
So, how could it be that mankind missed that move for >50 years ?

It should also give good chances in human games , the main variations are 7...b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2
and white succeeded to play g4 without f3 . Or 7...Be7 8.Qe2 (8.f3 is also good, it could be reached
with 7.f3 Be7 8.a3 , where both Be7 and a3 are not considered best)
One point is, that 7.a3 b5 8.g4 e5 ? 9.Nf5 g6 10.Bg2 ! is better for White , I called it the "asmFish trap"

I have some other nice piece-sacrifices after 7.a3 ...


maybe this should be in the Scheveningen  Forum ?
  
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