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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 6.Be3 e6 7.a3 (Read 13949 times)
gsgs
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #21 - 02/19/19 at 10:45:43
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2 games at TCEC 14 ,superfinal , Lc0-Stockfish10 , 
games 3 and 4 in the archive

both went 7...b5 8. g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 h5 10.g5 Ng4

however, at depth 62 I get 10.h3 with eval +0.45
and pv : 10...hxg4 11.hxg4 Rxh1+ 12.Bxh1 Nfd7 13.Qe2 Nc6
14.O-O-O g5 15.Nxc6 Qxc6 16.Bd4
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #20 - 09/02/18 at 09:46:18
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some (pseudo) piece sacrifices that I encountered in the 7.a3 lines :

7.a3 b5 8.g4 e5 9.Nf5 g6 10.Bg2
7.a3 b5 8.g4 d5 9.exd5 Bb7 10.dxe6
7.a3 b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.g5 Nd7 11.f4 h6 12.Nxe6
7.a3 Be7 8.Qe2 e5 9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5 11.Bg5 Qb6 12.Bxf6 Qxb2 13.Nd1


my 4 main lines (asmFish ~May2017 , 27 moves)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6
6.Be3 e6 7.a3 b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.g5 Nd7
11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.f5 Nxd4 14.Qxd4 exf5 15.Nd5 Rc8
16.exf5 Rxc2 17.f6 gxf6 18.Nxe7+ Qxe7 19.Bxb7 Re8 20.Rh3 Rc4
21.Qd5 Ne5 22.Bxa6 Ng4 23.gxf6 Qxf6 24.Qg6+ Qxg5 25.hxg5 Rc5
26.b4 Rce5 27.Kd2

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6
6.Be3 e6 7.a3 b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.g5 Nd7
11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.Qe2 Nxd4 14.Bxd4 Qa5 15.O-O-O b4
16.axb4 Qxb4 17.f5 e5 18.Be3 Rfb8 19.f6 gxf6 20.Bh3 Bxe4
21.Nxe4 Qxb2+ 22.Kd2 Qb4+ 23.Nc3 Rc8 24.Qd3 e4 25.Rb1 Qa5
26.Ra1 Qb4 27.Rhb1

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6
6.Be3 e6 7.a3 b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.g5 Nd7
11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.Nxc6 Bxc6 14.h5 e5 15.Qd2 exf4
16.Bxf4 Ne5 17.h6 g6 18.O-O-O a5 19.Nd5 Bxd5 20.exd5 Rc8
21.Kb1 Rc4 22.Rh3 Rxf4 23.Qxf4 Bxg5 24.Qd4 f5 25.Bf1 Qd7
26.Qb6 b4 27.Qxa5 = +0.20d57(4)

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6
6.Be3 e6 7.a3 b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nc6 10.g5 Nd7
11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.Nxc6 Bxc6 14.h5 a5 15.Qd2 b4
16.Ne2 Nc5 17.h6 g6 18.axb4 axb4 19.O-O Rxa1 20.Rxa1 Qb8
21.e5 Bxg2 22.Bxc5 dxc5 23.Kxg2 Qb7 24.Kg3 Rd8 25.Qe3 Bf8
26.Qf3 Qb5 27.b3


these are all complicated variations, suitable for preparation in human games
and reducing the draw rate in engine games.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #19 - 08/10/18 at 09:53:27
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A bit off topic, but about my post above if anyone wants to know why I played that many Najdorf Be3 events is becouse it is regular standard event at ICCF.  I have won one of the Najdorf events and got 2nd or 3rd place in the others. I  however mainly play this since I think that the position leads to interesting play for both sides unlike some other thematical events I played in like several Petroff events. 
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #18 - 08/09/18 at 10:16:01
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About 6 Be3 Ng4 from whites point of view compare to 6 f3 I like to give a comment.
6 Be3 allows Ng4 but I dont think is an issue, I have +2 =2 -0 from thematical corr games at ICCF where I played 7 Bg5.
However 6 Be3 does not commit white to a f3 setup, thus one can play the positional 7 Nf3 vs e5 and vs e6 one can play 7 Be2 or 7 a3  that this thread is about. However if white intends to play f3 setup vs both e5 and e6 than 6 f3 might be a better move order for practical reasons.

In the thematical 6 Be3 events combined (5 events including a recent started) 6 .. e6 has been the most common move for some reason. A thing I noticed is that I have scored best in % with white against g6 and lowest vs e5 but I have some new ideas vs e5. I have played e5 myself in my black games in every event.

 

« Last Edit: 08/09/18 at 15:10:52 by bragesjo »  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #17 - 08/09/18 at 06:31:41
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after 7.g4 black has 7..e5 
small advantage black , of course over the board in such complicated tactical variations that doesn't mean much.
------------------------
after 7.g4 b5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.a3 Bb7 it's better to play h4 than Bg2.
The Bf1 protects c4 and sometimes goes to h3 directly.
It is only needed on g2 to protect e4 and prevent d5.
But still, even with 10.Bg2 instead of h4 white should be 
a bit better theoretically.
10...Nc6,11.f4 Be7 12.h4 O-O 13.Nxc6 Bxc6 14.h5
is my current favourite.

other possibilities : 13.f5 , 13.Qe2


  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #16 - 08/08/18 at 16:03:40
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Of course, 6..Ng4 is only an option for Najdorf players.  It doesn't help those of us who play the Schevy with 2..e6 or even 5..e6.

So what to do about 6.Be3 a6 7.a3.  I'm coming around to the idea that Black should play 7..Be7, but I started looking at 7..b5 first, and I still have some questions about 7..b5 8.g4 Bb7 9.Bg2 Nfd7 10.g5.   

This position would come about through the Perenyi move order, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 a6 7.g4 b5 8.g5 Nfd7 9.a3 Bb7, if White were to play 10.Bg2 instead of the usual 10.h4.  I don't know where theory currently stands in these positions, but, as best I've been able to tell, after 10..Nc6, Black ought to be OK.            

 
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #15 - 08/08/18 at 08:37:29
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I had analysed this too, white had some advantage after
6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bg5 (+0.17 d46-50) , I should also have
it at greater depth and with more moves in the main variation,
but can't find it now, I think it was 7...h6 8.Bh4 g5 9.Bg3 Bg7
10.h3 Ne5 11.Nf5 
10...Nf6 11.Qf3 Qb6 12.O-O-O Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 14.Be2 Qc5 +0.25d50
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #14 - 08/07/18 at 16:03:30
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gsgs wrote on 08/06/18 at 13:22:52:
ok, it's not in the forum, but in the main page
Open Sicilians
Update April 2018
with GM Michael Roiz

referring to a game Paravyan, D - Grandelius, N
which went 7...h5 8.Be2 Nbd7
concluding "Regarding the opening, 7.a3!? definitely deserves further practical tests."

with 7...h5 I had a public forum (corr.) game Stertenbrink-Sikorski , 2018 , which went
8.Bd3 b5 9.Qe2 Qc7 10.O-O-O Nbd7 11.Rhe1 etc. White was a bit better but it was not 
enough to win, equality was reached ~10 moves later.
Interesting was 11.Bg5 according to posthum analysis (Qc5,Bd2 +0.40d52)


I always thought that 6.Be3 Ng4 was an annoying line for White to meet. Does White have better than transposing to the 6.f3 Lines?
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #13 - 08/06/18 at 13:22:52
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ok, it's not in the forum, but in the main page
Open Sicilians
Update April 2018
with GM Michael Roiz

referring to a game Paravyan, D - Grandelius, N
which went 7...h5 8.Be2 Nbd7
concluding "Regarding the opening, 7.a3!? definitely deserves further practical tests."

with 7...h5 I had a public forum (corr.) game Stertenbrink-Sikorski , 2018 , which went
8.Bd3 b5 9.Qe2 Qc7 10.O-O-O Nbd7 11.Rhe1 etc. White was a bit better but it was not 
enough to win, equality was reached ~10 moves later.
Interesting was 11.Bg5 according to posthum analysis (Qc5,Bd2 +0.40d52)
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #12 - 08/06/18 at 00:09:49
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gsgs wrote on 08/02/18 at 06:43:43:
kylemeister wrote on 08/01/18 at 18:13:52:
One thing is, it appeared in the April update (yes, as a Scheveningen --B80).




maybe you mean 6.a3 ? That's what I found here.
Scheveninger Keres Attack is considered pretty good for White
by Stockfish. a3 would be suboptimal there but still good for white


No.  In the April update, it is 6.Be3 e6 7.a3 that is covered.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #11 - 08/02/18 at 23:46:52
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a3 is useful in that it prevents b5-b4.
After 7.a3 Be7 8.f3 (which often transposes to French Steinitz) I would say
that Be7 is more useful than a3 and White would prefer to change 7.a3 for another move.
But in the typical English Attack variations with 7.f3 , Be7 is not optimal,
it is usually delayed in favour of b5,Nbd7,Bb7.
So , even with the less useful move a3, white is better than with 7.f3 b5.
------------------------------------------------
My last OTB rating was 2285, inactive, ICCF GM 1984 , Guenter Stertenbrink.
This is not my analysis but asmFish's/stockfish's , I just
decide on which variations to concentrate.
It took me a while at first to "understand" 7.a3 and how/why such a move
might be best in that position.
Here is how it started :
[rybkaforum , 2017 , links  not allowed ]
I've never considered/played 7.a3 before that.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #10 - 08/02/18 at 20:19:27
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After 7 a3 Be7, I just don't see how you can make the case that a2-a3 is more useful than ...Be7.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #9 - 08/02/18 at 19:50:13
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gsgs wrote on 08/02/18 at 07:25:46:

in summary, 
the average evals in centipawns at depths 52-56 for the 6 main variations
were : (files loh*.l1 , asmFish 9 , 4 cores , contempt=0)

+24,Be7,f3
+24,e5,Nb3
+31,b5,g4
+32,h6,f4
+28,Nc6,Qd2
+18,h5,Bd3
+44,Nbd7,g4,h6,f3

you won't find such good evals for White at depth >50 for other 7th moves.


What's your OTB rating?
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #8 - 08/02/18 at 07:25:46
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in summary, 
the average evals in centipawns at depths 52-56 for the 6 main variations
were : (files loh*.l1 , asmFish 9 , 4 cores , contempt=0)

+24,Be7,f3
+24,e5,Nb3
+31,b5,g4
+32,h6,f4
+28,Nc6,Qd2
+18,h5,Bd3
+44,Nbd7,g4,h6,f3

you won't find such good evals for White at depth >50 for other 7th moves.
  
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Re: 6.Be3 e6 7.a3
Reply #7 - 08/02/18 at 06:57:03
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>  A bit sceptical, but I am willing to be persuaded it's good 
> if you can back it up! [/quote]

6 main responses (depth 56) , 30 variations analysed with asmFish
at depth >50 (tablets, 4 cores)

71 analysis files in my g:/chess/log/7a3  directory
with names :

7nc6a,9h6,be7e,7be7g,7nbd7bc4,7h6f4,11f4,11rc8,11nxd4,9nc6,
7h5bd3,8e5,7f3,9f3,8g4,7be7,11rh3,9h5,7a3t,14h5c,14h5,11be7,
7e5c,8e5b,18qe4,12qh5b,12qh5,13qe2b,9bg2b,9be7b,7nbd7,7nbd7c,
be7d,11f4c,11f4b,11be7b,loh7a3,7gba,7a3b,7be7f3,12nxc6,13qd2,
11be7c,13qd2b,7be7f3b,ho1,7be7i,7be7j,10nfd7,12qe2f,7be7f,9nfd7,
7be7k,12qe2e,7be7c,hor13,7nc6,ho5,9bg2,9be7,loh7e5nb3,loh7be7f3,
loh7h5bd3,loh7nc6qd2,loh7nbd7g4,loh7h6f4,loh7b5g4,7b5g4b,
loh7nbd7g4h6,loh7a3b,7h5v,

Code
Select All

7.a3
multipv=10
 fen rnbqkb1r/1p3ppp/p2ppn2/8/3NP3/P1N1B3/1PP2PPP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 7
      48-50  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51
-----------
b7b5 ,  16 1,26,39,31, 7,20,21,20,40,26,23,34,24,16,22,30,27,25,15,18, 8,19,12,17,17 , b7b5 g2g4 h7h6 f1g2 ,51
h7h6 ,  20 1,12,20,32,27,15,23,12,10,27,29,19,31,36,18,30,26,27,27,40,12,20,25,17,28 , h7h6 f2f4 d8c7 d1e2 ,51
f8e7 ,  21 0,16,30,20,32,20,25,17,12, 8, 8,16,11,12,10,21,15,27,13,21,10,17,22,26,24 , f8e7 f2f3 e8g8 d1d2 ,51
b8d7 ,  21 5,12,30,17,21,24,15, 8,10,17,27,24,29,31,26,39,16,14,10,11,30,15,26,24,-- , b8d7 f1c4 d8c7 d1e2 ,50
e6e5 ,  23 2,32,37,40,21,27,39,39,20,34,31,25,23,27,24,22,19,18,27,17,15,22,18,30,22 , e6e5 d4b3 f6g4 e3c1 ,51
b8c6 ,  24 8,22,40,23,26,35,28,29,28,38,22,39,37,26,25,35,23,30,25,17,31,22,30,20,24 , b8c6 h2h3 f8e7 g2g4 ,51
h7h5 ,  28 2,28,37,37,40,38,23,26, 9,10,12,15,26,30,29,27,20,30,26,23,26,30,22,33,-- , h7h5 f2f4 b8d7 f1d3 ,50
c8d7 ,  38 3,40,57,51,44,67,49,45,62,--,--,51,32,40,34,30,40,37,--,--,25,29,42,43,-- , c8d7 g2g4 h7h5 g4g5 ,50
d8c7 ,  41 7,48,49,35,46,26,30,38,40,37,29,40,37,52,37,35,41,32,32,37,28,47,38,40,-- , d8c7 g2g4 h7h6 f2f3 ,50
d6d5 ,  46 -,--,--,--,--,--,--,47,47,28,43,57,49,--,--,--,--,--,38,50,55,45,37,57,-- , d6d5 e4d5 f6d5 c3d5 ,50
d8a5 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,49,52,--,--,--,48,50,--,--,--,--,-- , d8a5 f2f3 b8c6 d1d2 ,46
d8d7 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , d8d7 f1e2 f8e7 f2f4 ,19
f6d7 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , f6d7
g7g6 ,  -- -,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,56,47,--,--,--,--,--,--,60,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , g7g6 f1c4 f8e7 c4b3 ,44
b7b6 ,  -- 8,23,34,40,36,45,47,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,42,55,--,--,--,--,--,--,--,-- , b7b6 f2f3 h7h5 f1c4 ,43
-----------
      48-50  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51



  
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