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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 4...Be7 Sicilian (Read 1752 times)
yolocounty
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #12 - 09/27/18 at 17:26:29
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With Black committed to a Scheveningen structure with the bishop on e7 already White can probably play g2-g4 whenever he wants, with the idea of locking the knight on g8 by g5 or transposing into a very decent Keres Attack.

Probably 5. Nc3 d6 6. g4 or 6. Be3 and 7. g4.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #11 - 09/02/18 at 19:02:03
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Hi.

mn wrote on 09/02/18 at 06:16:14:
I think White can also play the Be3/Qe2 set-up (as recommended by Illingworth against the ...e6/...Nc6/...d6 move order.

Most certainly. Then I would be quite inclined to go a6+b5 quickly as black though and leave the knights for a while.

gsgs wrote on 09/02/18 at 09:50:47:
Stockfish gives 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 b5 7.e5
strange idea

Yea. Not sure but I guess white is somewhat for choice, although I would ideally try to find something else. Maybe 7.Bd3.

The more limiting move order appears to be 6.Qf3, because 6...b5 7.e5 is easily very good for white. I actually don't see anything I would consider good for black here; some half decent Taimanov maybe but nothing to great.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #10 - 09/02/18 at 09:50:47
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Stockfish gives 5.Nc3 a6 6.Be3 b5 7.e5
strange idea
  
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mn
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #9 - 09/02/18 at 06:16:14
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I think White can also play the Be3/Qe2 set-up (as recommended by Illingworth against the ...e6/...Nc6/...d6 move order.
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #8 - 09/01/18 at 23:19:20
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Hi.

White can also try to forget the Keres and instead play:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 a6 7.Qf3
In the position arisen it looks like it's gonna be problematic for black to play without developing one of the knights. This is something that would definitely normalise the game however and also enter a more regular type of position with Be7 played for black.

Also 5...a6 6.Qf3 looks to pose similar questions. These two lines I guess are reasonable answers to this 4...Be7 idea.

Have a nice day.


Edit: reworked and clarified.
« Last Edit: 09/02/18 at 18:44:29 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #7 - 08/30/18 at 07:26:53
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This line can be reached via the Symmetrical English 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 6.e4. White has done very well after 6...Nc6 though there are no high level games. White won two games with 7.Be3 and ...d5 is far from losing again.
As there is no clear refutation and Black hasn't made any bad moves I'd say it's playable.
  

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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #6 - 08/30/18 at 04:39:45
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Hi.

Stigma wrote on 08/29/18 at 18:33:41:
About the 3.Nc3 move order: That encourages Black to offer a Kan with 3...a6, having avoided probably White's two most dangerous lines against the regular Kan move order (5.c4 and 5.Bd3).

Yes. That is a major drawback.

ErictheRed wrote on 08/29/18 at 19:04:36:
5.c4 must be logical, since in the Kan/Taimanov/Paulsen Sicilians Black often does best to develop that bishop to b4 or c5 in lines with an early c2-c4.  I'd be surprised if this wasn't a more favorable version of 4...Nc6 5.Nb5 d6 6.c4 for White, even if only slightly.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 0-0 (or maybe 6...Nc6) is my idea. When the only way to prevent d7-d5 appears to be 7.e5 (and maybe white will get some pull but it could also become equal)
If black went for d6 after 5.c4, which i agree looks not so good, it would probably be a missed opportunity.

Confused_by_Theory wrote on 08/29/18 at 16:43:25:
White can also just develop.
C) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.Nc3
And now it looks like black has two moves.
5...a6
5...d6 May be safer even if you do risk ending up in a Keres-attack position. If 6.g4, which looks like an idea possibly you could try something like 6...h6 7.Be3 Nc6 and it looks like some central counterplay at least and no immediate kingside pressure for white.


Maybe after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 black can go for a6+b5 or h6+a6+b5 before anything else. Not that it's hugely impressive but it could be fresh positions at least.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #5 - 08/29/18 at 19:38:26
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ErictheRed wrote on 08/29/18 at 19:04:36:
or 5.Nc5 d6 6.f4!?


Assuming you meant 5. Nc3, one thing is that of course 6...Nf6 transposes to 6. f4 Be7 in the Scheveningen.  I recall that once upon a time that was thought to be bad for Black due to 7. Bb5+ Bd7 8. e5, but that later came to be seen as not the case.
  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #4 - 08/29/18 at 19:04:36
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5.c4 must be logical, since in the Kan/Taimanov/Paulsen Sicilians Black often does best to develop that bishop to b4 or c5 in lines with an early c2-c4.  I'd be surprised if this wasn't a more favorable version of 4...Nc6 5.Nb5 d6 6.c4 for White, even if only slightly.

4...Be7 5.Nb5? looks very illogical to me, since Black isn't going to develop that bishop to b4 or c5, there's no reason to force Black into playing 5...d6, which he's perfectly happy to play.  In fact Black might then put the b8-knight on d7, and this must be an improved version of 4...Nc6 5.Nb5 d6 6.c4 for Black, who will hit the e-pawn earlier than normal by playing ...b6 and ...b7; the knight on c6 is not placed well there anyway, and often reroutes to d7 via e5 or b8.  Black might even save two whole tempi over known theory.

Offhand I also wonder whether some combination of Nc3 and Qg4 might be very promising for White as well, or 5.Nc5 d6 6.f4!?.  But simply 5.c4 must be at least slightly better for White in straightforward Maroczy kind of way, who hasn't had to displace his strong knight from d4.
  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #3 - 08/29/18 at 18:53:21
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Stigma wrote on 08/29/18 at 18:33:41:
Though with the bishop on e7 the knight on g8 doesn't have any other decent squares than f6, so you'd think play would transpose to something known from Keres Attack theory soon. Maybe Black is avoiding some specific g4-g5 issues by developing the queenside first?


I was put in mind of Karpov-Kasparov, game 14 of their 1985 match:  1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 h6 7.h4 a6 8.Bg2 Be7 9.Be3 Nxd4 10.Qxd4 e5 11.Qd1 Be6 12.Nd5 Rc8 13.c3 Nf6 (= Informant/ECO).
  
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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #2 - 08/29/18 at 18:33:41
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Interesting idea; must be good for a surprise weapon at the very least.

About the 3.Nc3 move order: That encourages Black to offer a Kan with 3...a6, having avoided probably White's two most dangerous lines against the regular Kan move order (5.c4 and 5.Bd3).

So if this 4...Be7 moves actually gives Black different, viable options against the Keres attack, it could be a crafty way to combine the best of the Scheveningen with the best of the Kan!

Though with the bishop on e7 the knight on g8 doesn't have any other decent squares than f6, so you'd think play would transpose to something known from Keres Attack theory soon. Maybe Black is avoiding some specific g4-g5 issues by developing the queenside first?
  

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Re: 4...Be7 Sicilian
Reply #1 - 08/29/18 at 16:46:51
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An addition that I forgot.

A plan D) would be that you should be able to avoid much of this by going:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Nc3
Plan:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Qxd4 (+/-)

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4...Be7 Sicilian
08/29/18 at 16:43:25
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Ave! Sicilians and Sicilian lovers.

Long story short I have been thinking the past few days how to combat various e6 Sicilians as white. In the standard position after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 there are some rare moves I decided to check and I must say there is one where it did not seem obvious what to play with white. So if anyone here has any idea...

The move is 4...Be7

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It may not look like a great move but it can't exactly be bad either. Generally the e7 square is a tried and tested placement for the dark squared bishop in the Sicilian. Also. Although at first glance it doesn't look overly purposeful to put a bishop there this early it still acts as a developing move and there is relatively little white can do to disturb black's development. This means other stuff will get out eventually.

Can white somehow benefit strategically from black choosing to develop his bishop so early then? A general lack of interest for playing like this would perhaps indicate this. In terms of direct punishment there obviously isn't any. Black is very solid and white doesn't have enough pieces out to create meaningful threats. Instead a possible plan would be to go for a bind with c4 and claim this may lead to eventual strategic success. While it may not be thrilling positions for black it does seem like there might be some point to having developed the bishop instead of having done something less obviously useful. A third way of handling the situation would be to simply go 5.Nc3, let black get on with his setup and try to transpose into a position where having played and early Be7 is not great.

I'll list some attempts and relay some thoughts:

A) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.Nb5
Is probably not so dangerous.
5...d6 6.c4
What else? White risked being driven back with a6. Now the position could easily transpose into a Taimanov with Nb5 & c4 if black goes Nc6.
6...Nf6 7.N1c3 0-0 8.Be2 a6 9.Nd4 b6!?
Or 9...Nc6 with a Taimanov position. In both cases I wouldn't think white has much of an advantage against precise play from black.

Against pawn moves like 4...d6 and 4...a6 (Kan) white can go for 5.c4 setups. Here, since Be7 is probably more useful than either of those pawn moves I think black can consider trying to play for a breakout. For example:
B) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.c4 Nf6 6.Nc3 0-0
6...Nc6 7.Bf4 Bb4!? 8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Bd3 d6 10.e5 dxe5 11.Bxe5 Nd7 Should not be bad either, although maybe white can play better.
7.Be2
7.e5!? Ne8 8.Be2 d6 9.exd6 Nxd6 10.Bf4 Nc6 11.Nxc6!? bxc6 12.0-0 Nf5 13.Bd3 May be a some kind of pull for white.
7...Nc6 8.0-0 d5!? 9.exd5 exd5 10.Be3 dxc4 11.Bxc4
White is more active but black seems OK.

White can also just develop.
C) 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Be7 5.Nc3
And now it looks like black has two moves.
5...a6
5...d6 May be safer even if you do risk ending up in a Keres-attack position. If 6.g4, which looks like an idea possibly you could try something like 6...h6 7.Be3 Nc6 and it looks like some central counterplay at least and no immediate kingside pressure for white.
6.Be3
6.g4 b5 7.Bg2 Bb7 8.a3 Nc6 doesn't look so bad for black.
6.Qg4 Bf6!? 7.Be3 Nc6 8.0-0-0!? Nge7 May well be a little bit better for white, although black's piece placements still make some amount of sense to me.
6.Qf3!?
6...d6 7.Qf3 Nc6
I can't think of many good ways to avoid this sadly.
8.Nxc6 bxc6 9.Qg3 Nf6 10.0-0-0
With a normal Taimanov position I'm fairly sure I've seen coverage of earlier.

And well that is that. Perhaps especially if the Scheveningen position after 5.Nc3 d6 6.g4 is ok would be interesting to find out. Anyone has some thoughts?

Regards.
CbT
« Last Edit: 08/30/18 at 04:42:25 by Confused_by_Theory »  
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