(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. d4 d5 2. c4 › Catalan › Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
(Moderators: TN, proustiskeen)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿ (Read 21183 times)
FreeRepublic
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 794
Location: Georgia
Joined: 06/08/17
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #38 - 10/10/23 at 19:32:48
Post Tools
Modern-chess has several Ebooks for and against the Catalan.  Everyman chess has The Catalan:  Move by Move (2017) and Play the Catalan (2009). ForwardChess has works on the Catalan from Avrukh and from Bologan, each from 2015.

I think the Catalan has to be taken seriously and can lead to many types of positions. Both players have a say in the way the opening progresses, perhaps Black moreso. Consequently I can't speak of the Catalan in general, but rather in terms of specific lines.

My own preference, as Black, is for a line that is more bizarre than good:  1d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nf3 Nf6 4g3 dxc 5Bg2 Bb4ch 6Bd2 c5.

Perhaps 5...a6 and 5...c6 are better. There are other lines, each distinct in my opinion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
doefmat
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 101
Joined: 04/03/17
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #37 - 10/10/23 at 18:24:18
Post Tools
MarinFan wrote on 09/16/23 at 10:05:00:
Personally I think the catalan is harmless in club play. In recent "Playing the English" book,  from Nitrlis, proposes transposing to most main line catalan.  1c4 e6 2Nf3 d5 3g3 Nf6 4Bg2 Be7 50.0 0.0 6d4. After 6...pxp 7Qc2 I didn't see anything that worries me, black neutralises Bg2 with Bb7 , or Bd7-c6 then plays for c5 break. Karpov seemed to have resolved most problems in this line by early 80's. In the straightforward defenses white is trying to make very tiny advantages like a weak c6 square work, which don't mean much in club play.


Ntirlis also mentioned in a pretty recent Twitter post about some research he did that the Catalan is the best scoring opening for white at amateur level. Pretty interesting, since it never gets recommended for amateurs.
  
Chesspub; where people devote their whole life to find novelties on move 26 just to blunder on move 27
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MarinFan
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 435
Location: Leeds
Joined: 04/04/06
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #36 - 09/16/23 at 10:05:00
Post Tools
Personally I think the catalan is harmless in club play. In recent "Playing the English" book,  from Nitrlis, proposes transposing to most main line catalan.  1c4 e6 2Nf3 d5 3g3 Nf6 4Bg2 Be7 50.0 0.0 6d4. After 6...pxp 7Qc2 I didn't see anything that worries me, black neutralises Bg2 with Bb7 , or Bd7-c6 then plays for c5 break. Karpov seemed to have resolved most problems in this line by early 80's. In the straightforward defenses white is trying to make very tiny advantages like a weak c6 square work, which don't mean much in club play.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4931
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #35 - 09/26/18 at 07:15:04
Post Tools
Oddly enough, 7...b6 has also appeared on the opening-theory website "Chess Publishing" (incl. more recently than in the Yearbook, as far as I know). 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #34 - 09/26/18 at 06:41:15
Post Tools
fjd wrote on 09/26/18 at 04:06:55:
You mentioned you didn't like the Classical lines with ...Be7, ...0-0, ...dxc4 and ...a6 (or rather, liked them for White!). I would suggest maybe taking a look at the modern twist 7...b6!?. If White plays "normally", Black gets ...c5 in more easily than in the adjacent ...a6/...b5 lines, whereas the Exchange Sac line after 8 Ne5 gives Black dynamic play in return for the invested material.


I could take a look it. If I remember in one of the Yearbooks recent maybe I saw 7...b6 there (or maybe not, I do not remember  Cheesy). But yes, the entire 4...Ae7 complex was why I was attracted to playing Catalán for White. Fianchetto, long diagonal and slow positional torture.

Working backward, as White 4...Ab4+ is less comfortable to meet than 4...Ae7, with 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 the most annoying for me as White. So like Stigma said, that might be choice one for me as Black.

3...c5 is annoying because it forces White to play tactically compared to the Catalán lines. So I might add that one too.

In worst case scenario, in many 9+ round tournaments where they give one game per day where round starts in the late afternoon, one can see the pairings the night before and at least prepare. If see that opponent plays 3. g3 as White, can just play another one of my openings like Grünfeld or Slav  Cheesy
  
https://elajedrezdelproletariado.blogspot.com/
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fjd
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 551
Location: Ottawa
Joined: 09/22/16
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #33 - 09/26/18 at 04:06:55
Post Tools
You mentioned you didn't like the Classical lines with ...Be7, ...0-0, ...dxc4 and ...a6 (or rather, liked them for White!). I would suggest maybe taking a look at the modern twist 7...b6!?. If White plays "normally", Black gets ...c5 in more easily than in the adjacent ...a6/...b5 lines, whereas the Exchange Sac line after 8 Ne5 gives Black dynamic play in return for the invested material.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #32 - 09/23/18 at 04:49:08
Post Tools
No I'm not; in that position as Black, I would prefer 8...Nbd7.   

I'm not referring to one precise line, but rather a more sophisticated approach as Black where you choose between various ways of playing depending on where White puts his pieces.  For instance, an early Rd1 from White can often invite ...Ne4! in good form from Black.   

If (using the move order of your last post) White plays 7.0-0 c6 8.Qc2 Nbd7 9.Bf4 a5!? is an interesting move.  Then after 10.Rd1 Black could consider 10...b5!? or 10...Nh5 or 10...h6.  If White plays 9.Rd1 instead, Black could consider 9...a5!? again, or 9...Ne4 is not stupid.   

Anyway, I would still play 3...c5, I just mean that you don't have to play the Closed Catalan in completely passive fashion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #31 - 09/22/18 at 23:35:05
Post Tools
ErictheRed wrote on 09/22/18 at 22:58:50:
There are also ways to make the Closed Catalan more combative, such as the lines with ...b5.  Combine those ideas with ...Bb4+ and ...Be7, and playing some early ...Ne4 lines depending on White's move order, can be a way to try to outplay White.


Are you referring to this line ¿:



I have analysed a little bit of this line. Black has to be aware of tactics on the queenside, as well as when expanding on kingside. From my experience, but on White side  Cheesy
  
https://elajedrezdelproletariado.blogspot.com/
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #30 - 09/22/18 at 22:58:50
Post Tools
There are also ways to make the Closed Catalan more combative, such as the lines with ...b5.  Combine those ideas with ...Bb4+ and ...Be7, and playing some early ...Ne4 lines depending on White's move order, can be a way to try to outplay White.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #29 - 09/22/18 at 19:02:44
Post Tools
IsaVulpes wrote on 09/22/18 at 13:53:35:
From here, the lichess master DB knows 29 games, with 28 draws and 1 Black win. Do you think this position is better (at least in practical terms) for White?
Here's a 2016 correspondence draw, where Black played what -at a glance- looks like just a bunch of normal moves, and never got any problems: https://lichess.org/1PtdWykS

You haven't gone into any detail regarding what you play, and obviously the Catalan is a very serious try for an advantage - as seen by its frequency at the highest level, most recently in the candidates -, but your concrete loathing of the ..Be7 line in particular I can't really follow.


I generally follow Awrukh's 2th version of the GM Repertoire Catalán. Besides my one game as Black in 4...Ae7 a decade ago, with White also the positions somehow feel more comfortable. I feel that it is similar to the line 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Cc3 Cf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Ag5 c6 6. e3 Af5 7. Df3 Ag6 8. Axf6 Dxf6 9. Dxf6 gxf6 that elites like to play so much. It is like they saying, «I know I probably would not win, but I try to draw here». Unless of course the opponent is much lower rated. That is my personal feeling with 4...Ae7. Even if it has a good theoretical reputation, in practical game White always has that little pressure that can get bigger after small inaccuracies.

In correspondence of course, is much easier togo down long theoretical lines to strive for equality, more than in OTB where you probably would forget at least half of such long analyses. I would play a lot of things in correspondence that I would never play in OTB, maybe even 4...Ae7. Except I play only OTB and never correspondence  Cheesy

ErictheRed wrote on 09/22/18 at 18:01:55:
Going back to the original poster, I really think that if you're happy with the Benoni there's absolutely no reason not to play 3...c5!  There's got to be some line after 4.Nf3 that works for you.


I have to look more into that 3...c5. My reasoning is that although the Fianchetto Benoni is quite sharper than both Nimzo and QID (and a bit more than Ragozin), it is either that or Catalán.
  
https://elajedrezdelproletariado.blogspot.com/
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2533
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #28 - 09/22/18 at 18:01:55
Post Tools
Going back to the original poster, I really think that if you're happy with the Benoni there's absolutely no reason not to play 3...c5!  There's got to be some line after 4.Nf3 that works for you.  I would personally play 3...c5 in that position as Black all day long, except that I don't want to play the Benoni!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Laramonet
Senior Member
****
Offline


Gwyddbwll am byth !

Posts: 346
Location: Kidwelly
Joined: 03/16/07
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #27 - 09/22/18 at 16:30:14
Post Tools
Tony Rotella's You Tube video and Lichess study are excellent and supplement the Bb4+ / Bd6 line recommended by Pert and King.
Many thanks Tony !
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IsaVulpes
Senior Member
****
Offline


No.

Posts: 345
Joined: 12/09/07
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #26 - 09/22/18 at 13:53:35
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/11/18 at 19:50:41:
I see a lot of elite games with 4...Ae7 line. I still ask me, why play this line ¿ From White perspective, this type of positions is exactly what I would like to play against Shocked

Why not play this line? It's sound! It might be 'what White wants', but perhaps it's also what Black wants.. 

The "current mainline" (as far as I know anyway, haven't kept up with anything, as I never face the Catalan) of the Qc2 complex (as you mentioned you're not playing Ne5) goes like this:

I don't know if White has any convincing deviations along this road, or if 10.Bg5 superceded 10.Bf4 as the mainline since I looked, but that's my state of knowledge. 

From here, the lichess master DB knows 29 games, with 28 draws and 1 Black win. Do you think this position is better (at least in practical terms) for White? 
Here's a 2016 correspondence draw, where Black played what -at a glance- looks like just a bunch of normal moves, and never got any problems: https://lichess.org/1PtdWykS

You haven't gone into any detail regarding what you play, and obviously the Catalan is a very serious try for an advantage - as seen by its frequency at the highest level, most recently in the candidates -, but your concrete loathing of the ..Be7 line in particular I can't really follow. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 499
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #25 - 09/11/18 at 19:50:41
Post Tools
CanadianClub wrote on 09/11/18 at 16:43:48:
In the Catalan, there are different good choices theoretically for Black. But, practically OTB, you have to know the subtleties of what you are playing because White pressure is always there, very annoying sometimes even if there's nothing concrete.


I know this from playing White. The worst result I have in Catalán so far is drawing a 2150, and I was slightly better in the opening anyway.

I still wonder why some White players choose to face the Nimzo and then complain that Black keeps equalising. Why not just try Catalán instead where the chance for suffering is much higher ¿   Cheesy

TonyRo wrote on 09/11/18 at 14:17:51:
Yeah, it's true, that's a real line that I would need to take a look at it. I might have time to take a look at it - one of the weaknesses of YouTube videos, but one of the strengths of attaching an updated lichess study!


Why not make a Black repertoire book on Catalán ¿ If you cover 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 I would buy ¡

I see a lot of elite games with 4...Ae7 line. I still ask me, why play this line ¿ From White perspective, this type of positions is exactly what I would like to play against Shocked
  
https://elajedrezdelproletariado.blogspot.com/
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CanadianClub
Senior Member
****
Offline


Greetings from Catalonia!

Posts: 416
Joined: 11/11/12
Gender: Male
Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #24 - 09/11/18 at 16:43:48
Post Tools
I was playing for a while TonyRo recommend lines in his youtube vid and I was always well prepared and knowing where I am. For me this is more important than having a slightly advantage where it's difficult to proceed (or more precisely, where it's not obvious to you why you're slightly better or worse).

Being a nimzo player helps, because of (surprisingly) this Nc3 was the main choice of my opponents instead of the critical Bd2.

Richard Pert chapters on his book on the Ragozin (Bb4+ Bd2 Bd6) are very interesting and practically a very good option.

In the Catalan, there are different good choices theoretically for Black. But, practically OTB, you have to know the subtleties of what you are playing because White pressure is always there, very annoying sometimes even if there's nothing concrete.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2024. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge