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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿ (Read 20163 times)
Stigma
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #8 - 09/07/18 at 03:39:49
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/07/18 at 02:49:46:
Stigma wrote on 09/07/18 at 02:26:10:
About the 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 line: There is a video course by IM Ostrosvky on the Catalan. I have only seen the free excerpt, but I believe it covers the Closed for Black with both this 4...Bb4+/5...Be7 move order and the traditional 4...Be7. Could be worth checking out.


I have never heard of this one. Which publisher has this course ¿

It's from TheChessWorld. It's quite pricey though; I don't think I would buy it unless I got a special offer. You can watch the free excerpt here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI7aIto_4yQ
  

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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #7 - 09/07/18 at 02:49:46
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Stigma wrote on 09/07/18 at 02:26:10:
There's one very obvious advice here: Study 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bd6 in a lot of depth. In your situation that work will pay off no matter what conclusion you reach: You will either have your weapon with Black or finally feel comfortable with White.


I was definitely thinking about this since it was covered in Pert's Ragozin book by Quality Chess. It looks interesting and as White I find it quite annoying. Maybe other who play White find it annoying too (?)

Stigma wrote on 09/07/18 at 02:26:10:
About the 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 line: There is a video course by IM Ostrosvky on the Catalan. I have only seen the free excerpt, but I believe it covers the Closed for Black with both this 4...Bb4+/5...Be7 move order and the traditional 4...Be7. Could be worth checking out.


I have never heard of this one. Which publisher has this course ¿ I think that is objectively one of Black's best equalising options. I searched in database for some games, and noticed a few Roïz games with this line. Was a reason I was wondering about what would be recommended for Catalán in the upcoming QID book.


I have some own analyses on the 10...Ab7 system after 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ae7, but obviously if my analyses gets busted then I need to get a different system  Cheesy
  
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Stigma
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #6 - 09/07/18 at 02:26:10
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/06/18 at 18:45:44:
The only other system that 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 that seems semi-comfortable to me is that setup with 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ae7 ...c6/...Cbd7/...b6/...Ab7. But there is no line where I feel as comfortable as in the Nimzo or Q I D/Ragozin.

However, as White when I play Catalán I feel quite comfortable in almost every line that Black plays ,except not so much 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 as I said above.

There's one very obvious advice here: Study 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bd6 in a lot of depth. In your situation that work will pay off no matter what conclusion you reach: You will either have your weapon with Black or finally feel comfortable with White.

About the 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 line: There is a video course by IM Ostrovsky on the Catalan. I have only seen the free excerpt, but I believe it covers the Closed for Black with both this 4...Bb4+/5...Be7 move order and the traditional 4...Be7. Could be worth checking out.
« Last Edit: 09/07/18 at 18:50:03 by Stigma »  

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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #5 - 09/06/18 at 23:32:55
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/06/18 at 18:45:44:
ErictheRed wrote on 09/06/18 at 14:54:47:
3...c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 is not fun for you? 


You mean gambit where White plays cxd5 and Black puts bishop on c5 and tries for compensation?


Nah, this is a different line, Black gets to stick his pawn on d4.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #4 - 09/06/18 at 18:45:44
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ErictheRed wrote on 09/06/18 at 14:54:47:
3...c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 is not fun for you? 


You mean gambit where White plays cxd5 and Black puts bishop on c5 and tries for compensation? That feels like a position that I would avoid with both colours. In addition to being quite different from the Nimzo and QID, it is sharp like Benoni.

Stigma wrote on 09/06/18 at 10:21:15:
I'm talking about the setup with ...c6, Nbd7, b6, etc., not the main line with ...Be7 and ...dxc4. Black can also throw in ...Bb4+, Bd2 Be7 and then continue with the Closed setup.


The only other system that 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 that seems semi-comfortable to me is that setup with 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ae7 ...c6/...Cbd7/...b6/...Ab7. But there is no line where I feel as comfortable as in the Nimzo or QID/Ragozin.

However, as White when I play Catalán I feel quite comfortable in almost every line that Black plays ,except not so much 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6 as I said above.

I was waiting to see what Roïz would recommend against Catalán in the QID book, but I do not know when it gets published.
  
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #3 - 09/06/18 at 14:54:47
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3...c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5 is not fun for you?
  
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Stigma
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #2 - 09/06/18 at 10:21:15
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Have you guys considered the Closed Catalan? I remember Wojo's Weapons arguing it was not bad and Black should equalize if he knows what he's doing.

I'm talking about the setup with ...c6, Nbd7, b6, etc., not the main line with ...Be7 and ...dxc4. Black can also throw in ...Bb4+, Bd2 Be7 and then continue with the Closed setup.
  

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Lauri Torni
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Re: Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
Reply #1 - 09/06/18 at 09:09:11
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I have the same feeling on the Catalan. Haven't found any line for black I like. The very main line seems currently the most comfortable.

Benoni  with -Bf5 ideas is a line I consider for black. 3.-c5 4.Nf3 is fine for me.
  

1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Leon_Trotsky
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Playing Catalán as Black seems unpleasant ¿
09/06/18 at 06:53:32
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I usually play Grünfeld and Slav, but lately added Nimzo and Ragozin/Queen's Indian into Black repertoire. Perhaps is psychological, but I feel that after 1. d4 Cf6 2. c4 e6, 3. Cc3 and 3. Cf3 are not unpleasant for Black, but rather 3. g3 is.

Playing Benoni style with 3...c5 is interesting, but White can decline with 4. Cf3 and it is not so fun for me. Even in the Benoni, the sharp nature is not as similar to Nimzo and Queen's Indian combination.

I have switched between six or seven Catalán systems for Black, including a few with 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ae7 and several with 4...dxc4. I play the Catalán with White, never lost with it in a tournament game and almost all of the Catalán positions I would rather play with White even if Black is theoretically fine. The only system that makes me nervous as White is the system with 4...Ab4+ 5. Ad2 Ad6!?.

Does anyone feel this way, or am I just have a better feel for it as White, and you feel that Catalán can be pleasant for both sides ¿
  
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