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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana (Read 30524 times)
Monocle
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #45 - 11/28/18 at 18:41:15
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The championship format should be a champion vs challenger match, but 12 games is just too short.
  
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Stigma
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #44 - 11/28/18 at 18:29:23
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That was brutal.

Should silence most of Carlsen's critics for now.

Long-term I still think they need to rethink the championship format. Draw upon draw in the classical games is a hard sell in today's hectic media scene, even though many of the games were real fights.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #43 - 11/28/18 at 18:28:28
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Well there you go, taking the draw in move 12 was more than correct. What a slaughter.
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #42 - 11/28/18 at 16:32:02
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Beautiful and instructive endgame in game one today, wow. That was impressive by Carlsen, and will be hard to recover from by Fabiano.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #41 - 11/27/18 at 22:51:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/27/18 at 16:13:23:
Obviously Carlsen is human too, and having offered a repetition earlier in the game, he obviously thought that a draw was a good result for him in game 12. Still with the situation in the board and clocks, I can't fathom not playing on for a while, unless there is some offstage factor, such as illness.

On reddit, someone suggested the draw offer to be some elaborate mind trick -
If they keep playing for 5 hours and end up drawing anyway (draw was still a favourite in the position they had), then Fabiano would get another boost of confidence, having held a difficult endgame, while Magnus would be even more frustrated.
Now instead, Carlsen can be happy with his game, and Caruana is left with disgust at his prep and a lingering feeling that he only made it out because of the mercy of his opponent, rather than his own ability.
This way, the draw offer would make a good bit of sense, 'manipulating momentum', and ending up advantageous for the tiebreaks tomorrow.
A similar story was told by Svidler about the Kasparov-Kramnik match, where Kramnik deliberately took a draw in 11 moves to unsettle Garry, as his mindset would've been a much better one had they played 4 more hours.
Still, it does feel rather constructed..

P. S. Regarding the 'objective' worth of the position, chesscom is playing a round robin event with all of its engines from the ComputerChessCh from the final position of G12.
Last I checked, the top engine matches (between Leela, Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini) have all been draws, and while the lower boards do have some decisive results, there are also several wins by White amongst those.
E: Alright, some Wins are creeping in for Black.. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/375393578391961600/517272621096763413/unk...
Unclear of course how good Engines are at defending a somewhat blocked position, but curious nevertheless.
« Last Edit: 11/28/18 at 11:08:53 by IsaVulpes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #40 - 11/27/18 at 22:35:37
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Stigma wrote on 11/27/18 at 20:01:05:
Sure! Some of the comments have been in long TV broadcasts that I can't track down now. But here are two online articles:

https://www.vg.no/sport/i/l12R4G/soesteren-frykter-carlsen-legger-opp-ved-vm-tap

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sporsmalet-carlsen-ikke-kan-tenke-pa_-_-det-kryper-inn-....

There's probably more in the podcast "Sjakksnakk" linked at the bottom of the NRK story. Also available here: https://radio.nrk.no/podkast/sjakksnakk . Episodes #1 and #4 look relevant here (but I haven't listened to them myself yet).


Takk!!  Grin


I thought about the draw offre a bit since yesterday's game. Of course Black is better in the final position, but it takes quite some work to win. Even though Carlsen is known to grind for hours in even more equal positions, I suspect he wanted to save energy for the rapids.

Quite a few games it was demostrated already that grinding in better positions produced draws. Maybe that means that both players are not in best form, but anyway perhaps he thought that saving energy was a better long term strategy.

I was thinking at first, Caruana cannot possibly be that bad at rapid and blitz, and surely at 2800+ that is not really possible. But then I looked through the YouTube and saw that Caruana had some problems against Aronian in the chess.com blitz match. Whilst last year Carlsen beat Nakamura in the final of that same online tournament. My guess is that Carlsen has seen the results of this and thinks he just need to rest and win handily in the rapid/blitz tomorrow.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #39 - 11/27/18 at 21:01:11
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P.S.: Anyone who wants a Norwegian perspective on the match and top chess in general, but in English, should check out anything written by GM Jonathan Tisdall (originally American, but lives in and plays for Norway) or Tarjei Svensen. Both are very active on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GMjtis and https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS . For instance:


Svensen on the very candid Magnus interview in the podcast Sjakksnakk, Ep. 1:

https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS/status/1054774095777329152

https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-insights-from-norwegian-podcast

Svensen on a VG interview with Magnus before the match:

https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS/status/1060179653304958976

https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-insights-from-norwegian-vg-interview

Tisdall on the match:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/13-things-to-know-about-the-carlsen-vs-caruan...

https://www.chess.com/article/view/2018-world-chess-championship-halftime
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #38 - 11/27/18 at 20:01:05
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/27/18 at 19:36:43:
Can you link to the Norsk media ¿ Just curious to read what been said on newspaper or tv, I speak Norsk Smiley

Sure! Some of the comments have been in long TV broadcasts that I can't track down now. But here are two online articles:

https://www.vg.no/sport/i/l12R4G/soesteren-frykter-carlsen-legger-opp-ved-vm-tap

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sporsmalet-carlsen-ikke-kan-tenke-pa_-_-det-kryper-inn-...

There's probably more in the podcast "Sjakksnakk" linked at the bottom of the NRK story. Also available here: https://radio.nrk.no/podkast/sjakksnakk . Episodes #1 and #4 look relevant here (but I haven't listened to them myself yet).
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #37 - 11/27/18 at 19:36:43
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Stigma wrote on 11/27/18 at 17:13:22:
Both Carlsen himself and others who know him have been quite open, at least in Norwegian media, about what a blow it would be for him now to lose either the title, the number one spot on the rating list or both. There have even been speculations from close family and friends that he just might retire if he loses the match!


Can you link to the Norsk media ¿ Just curious to read what been said on newspaper or tv, I speak Norsk Smiley
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #36 - 11/27/18 at 18:06:08
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/27/18 at 16:13:23:
Rene, where does your 86% figure come from?  I personally do not think that Carlsen had a 14% chance of losing game 12 from the position that a draw was agreed,  so it's hard for me to understand him not playing on at least a few more moves.


There is an ELO match probability calculator here:

https://wismuth.com/elo/calculator.html#best_of=4&rating1=2880&rating2=2789

You leave the draw probability field blank for chess--it use an 0.6-pawn draw-odds advantage to calculate the draw probabilities. The calculator handles the combinatorics.

Based on ratings, Carlsen's probability of winning a four-game rapid match  is 65.84%, and his probability of drawing one is 22.02%; similarly, the probability of his winning a 2-game blitz match is 69.98%, and his probability of drawing one is 24.04%.

The first tiebreak is a four-game rapid match, and each of the second through sixth tiebreaks is a 2-game rapid match. The probability of Carlsen's winning in the tiebreaks before Armageddon is therefore

65.84% + 22.02% [69.98%+ (24.04% * 69.98%) + (24.04%^2 * 69.98%) + (24.04%^3 * 69.98%) + (24.04%^4 * 69.98%)]
=86.11%
« Last Edit: 11/28/18 at 16:33:27 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #35 - 11/27/18 at 17:13:22
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One major point missing from the discussion here: How important remaining world no. 1 on the rating list was to Carlsen.

Both Carlsen himself and others who know him have been quite open, at least in Norwegian media, about what a blow it would be for him now to lose either the title, the number one spot on the rating list or both. There have even been speculations from close family and friends that he just might retire if he loses the match!

If that's the kind of pressure he has put on himself in this match, when he finally faces an opponent that's almost his equal at classical time controls, the gravity of the situation in game 12 and the draw offer become a lot more understandable. Don't forget that with this draw Carlsen saved his no. 1 spot (in classical) at least for the time being, and some believe that's even more important to him than the title. He has after all suggested changing the World championship to a cup format before, which would increase the randomness and noticeably reduce his own chances of holding on to the title. In the three matches with Anand and Karjakin, on the other hand, there was no chance they would catch up with Carlsen on the rating list even if they had won the match in the classical games.

(Not that it matters nearly as much, but in rapid Magnus' no. 1 spot is quite secure, while in blitz Vachier-Lagrave in 2nd place is just two points behind him at the moment. [Source: https://2700chess.com/ ])

Of course, from a pure chess and spectator point of view I'm as disappointed as everyone else that he didn't play on with a great position both on the board and the clock. But it may be as much the current match system's fault as Carlsen's.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #34 - 11/27/18 at 16:13:23
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Obviously Carlsen is human too, and having offered a repetition earlier in the game, he obviously thought that a draw was a good result for him in game 12. Still with the situation in the board and clocks, I can't fathom not playing on for a while, unless there is some offstage factor, such as illness.

Rene, where does your 86% figure come from?  I personally do not think that Carlsen had a 14% chance of losing game 12 from the position that a draw was agreed,  so it's hard for me to understand him not playing on at least a few more moves.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #33 - 11/27/18 at 13:21:42
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 23:25:37:
How Magnus managed to be surprised by it anyhow.. is completely beyond me.

Well, let's be charitable for once; then the answer is quite simple. He's a honest guy and refused and forbade his team to look at the leaked information.

ReneDescartes wrote on 11/27/18 at 04:49:18:
It's not so much Carlsen's nerves as his inability to turn on a dime that showed here--and the clinical side of his competetive nature.

Yep. Carlsen is human too.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #32 - 11/27/18 at 04:49:18
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Kasparov lit into Carlsen on Twitter, but I calculate Carlsen's chance of winning the tiebreaks before Armageddon at  86%--including the brevity of the matches. Such odds are at least comparable to those in the complex Game 12 Sicilian position where Carlsen  offered a draw while holding a clear advantage.

Kasparov disparaged Carlsen's decision, but Kasparov never had such an option. His pride is that he triumphed in two decisive final games against Karpov, so naturally he suggests that that  is the most important skill. And if Carlsen wins, the latter will have defended his title four times, creeping up on Kasparov's five. It seems to me that Kasparov may be trying a little bit to induce an error (as when he taunted Anand in the match against Gelfand).

It's not so much Carlsen's nerves as his inability to turn on a dime that showed here--and the clinical side of his competetive nature.  Even if Caruana wins, that won't show  that Kasparov was right.
« Last Edit: 11/27/18 at 10:21:26 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #31 - 11/27/18 at 02:22:42
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/27/18 at 01:48:29:
At least this could show that playing as White is not as valuable in elite as it thought was be  Cheesy

Sadly, the opposite is the case.

The thing here is more that Caruana is content with "killing off the game" as Black in the Petroff/QGD, mixed with a certain amount of outpreparing that makes Carlsen take safe paths (like eg the ..Rd8 in the QGD), so Magnus doesn't get anywhere with White; while Carlsen's Black games in the Sveshnikov produce actual fights, where Carlsen is then able to outplay Caruana.
If Fabiano had a more "fighting" repertoire as Black, I figure we would see a lot more of White pressing (as we saw in G3 before Bd2?!, G8, G9 somewhat).

As I detailed in the Reddit thread on the previous page, the White advantage is actually a lot more substantial than those 53-55% percent for individual games you see in Databases of good openings.
I went through 29 elite events (basically every round robin I could find with 2600+ players of the last 3 years); counted the winners (40 total due to several shared first places), and looked at how many of those 40 were ones with an extra White, and how many had an extra Black.
The end result was 29:11 in favour of the extra White, or 72.5% of elite tournament winners having the luck of the draw.

To me, that is a much bigger issue than the count of draws..
  
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