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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana (Read 8944 times)
trw
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #60 - 02/11/19 at 19:14:25
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IsaVulpes wrote on 12/02/18 at 10:13:08:
TD wrote on 12/02/18 at 08:20:56:
Do you know who the seconds were of both players?

Caruana confirmed that his team was Rustam, Ramirez, Chirila & Leinier-Dominguez

Carlsen didn't really answer the question; the only thing I think we know is that JLH wasn't one of his seconds. Gustafsson was likely again a part of the team, as he didn't do any coverage on chess24?

Re: Odd Number of Games with an extra White and draw odds,
Karjakin suggested a variation of this: https://twitter.com/SergeyKaryakin/status/1068462511819759617
Too few games for my taste, but the champion being allowed to choose which of the two he prefers is an interesting idea



I wonder why Hammer wasn't. In the past, he's used Nepo, Adams, in addition to PHN, Jan Gusti, Grandelius and Fressinet
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #59 - 12/23/18 at 02:17:07
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There's now a video series available on chess24 by Gustafsson, Fressinet and PHN, giving an inside perspective on the match. Looks interesting.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #58 - 12/06/18 at 03:09:52
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Having read a lot about the length of the match, I do agree it should be a little longer perhaps 16 games and with less rest time; e.g. a rest day after each three games.

In saying that not sure that Caruana's choice of the Rossolimo and then 7 Nd5 against the Sveshnikov advanced his cause that much...Carlsen is very comfortable in these types of position...
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #57 - 12/02/18 at 19:10:30
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Hi.

TD wrote on 12/02/18 at 08:20:56:
Do you know who the seconds were of both players?

Carlsen's seconds were Peter Heine Nielsen (in New York) of course. But also Fressinet, Jan Gustafsson, Grandelius and an as of yet unknown one. These last four were stationed somewhere in Asia during the match. They slept when play was going on and I guess the point to this elaborate arrangement was they woke up to daylight.

Have a nice evening.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #56 - 12/02/18 at 10:13:08
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TD wrote on 12/02/18 at 08:20:56:
Do you know who the seconds were of both players?

Caruana confirmed that his team was Rustam, Ramirez, Chirila & Leinier-Dominguez

Carlsen didn't really answer the question; the only thing I think we know is that JLH wasn't one of his seconds. Gustafsson was likely again a part of the team, as he didn't do any coverage on chess24?

Re: Odd Number of Games with an extra White and draw odds,
Karjakin suggested a variation of this: https://twitter.com/SergeyKaryakin/status/1068462511819759617
Too few games for my taste, but the champion being allowed to choose which of the two he prefers is an interesting idea
  
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TD
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #55 - 12/02/18 at 08:20:56
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Do you know who the seconds were of both players?
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #54 - 11/28/18 at 23:03:58
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Judging by coverage on npr.org, which was not noticeable *during* the match but three quick articles since the end of regulation, I don't think the tiebreakers have any impact on the "man in the street" opinion of the match. The fact that the play was speeding up was reported in an entirely neutral fashion. "We have a winner" about sums it up.

The match may have been too short, but one upside is that there were "only" 12 consecutive draws. These two players were quite capable of producing a longer series of draws.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #53 - 11/28/18 at 22:39:21
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 20:54:09:
The first is for the WCh:
- Add a few games, and make it an *odd* number!
- The challenger gets an extra White
- In the event of a draw, the champion retains the title

"A few" here meaning play 15/17; if we reduce the amount of rest days a bit that wouldn't even necessarily lengthen the WCh by much.
This is actually a very clever suggestion. The value of an extra white is easy to quantify, diminishing as the match lengthens. The value of draw odds in the match is less easy to quantify. Maybe one of those cake-cutting games is needed. One of the players proposes a match length, and the other player chooses either the extra white or the draw odds.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #52 - 11/28/18 at 22:27:51
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/28/18 at 18:28:28:
Well there you go, taking the draw in move 12 was more than correct. What a slaughter.


Just because his decision in game 12 worked out doesn't mean that it was the correct one.
« Last Edit: 11/29/18 at 00:28:44 by ErictheRed »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #51 - 11/28/18 at 20:49:06
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ReneDescartes wrote on 11/28/18 at 19:24:09:
rather than to something approaching the abolition of the classical chess championship altogether and the extinction of Steinitz line.

This sounds extremely unlikely to me. As said, the Classical WCh is pretty much the only time that press and public are following chess at all; all complaints about draws and whatnot recognised, it's still by far the biggest pull of anything out there.

Abolishing it altogether just won't happen. There might be some change here or there, but the general format will stick around (rather than being substituted for some kind of knockout or such), I am almost 100% sure.

Chess was in the Top3 on Twitch with over 100k viewers, there were another close to 100k watching on Chess24 split across the three languages, and that isn't even counting the official broadcast and massive press coverage yet - for example https://fivethirtyeight.com/ had lots of analysis and information written by people clearly not naturally affiliated with chess. They can't/won't just "drop" this.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #50 - 11/28/18 at 20:04:06
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I agree with Rene: the only substantive change that I'd like to see is to a longer classical match.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #49 - 11/28/18 at 19:41:02
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Stigma wrote on 11/28/18 at 19:27:11:
I think the below was a good suggestion for mixing up the format. It would give more incentive for taking chances while returning to a sharp division between classical and faster time controls.
IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 20:54:09:

The first is for the WCh:
- Add a few games, and make it an *odd* number!
- The challenger gets an extra White
- In the event of a draw, the champion retains the title

"A few" here meaning play 15/17; if we reduce the amount of rest days a bit that wouldn't even necessarily lengthen the WCh by much.
[...]


Another note on top of this is of course that you can play a much shorter classical control.
There's no need to directly turn everything into Rapid, but 90+30/30 is the standard FIDE control;
I think it would already help if the WCh simply used that, instead of the 100+30/50/15 it currently does.

Then again, you can of course always make the point that more time also helps with converting better positions (as you are actually able to calculate until you find a win), but I think overall less time will always help the attacker more than the defender, and induce more aggressive play (+ some mistakes) in general.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #48 - 11/28/18 at 19:27:11
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I think the below was a good suggestion for mixing up the format. It would give more incentive for taking chances while returning to a sharp division between classical and faster time controls.

IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 20:54:09:

The first is for the WCh:
- Add a few games, and make it an *odd* number!
- The challenger gets an extra White
- In the event of a draw, the champion retains the title

"A few" here meaning play 15/17; if we reduce the amount of rest days a bit that wouldn't even necessarily lengthen the WCh by much.
[...]

« Last Edit: 11/29/18 at 00:59:28 by Stigma »  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #47 - 11/28/18 at 19:24:09
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Let us suppose that what is exciting is a fluctuation in which one player looks like he stands to win the match, after which the other catches up or even himself looks more likely to win the match, and so on down to the wire. Was that then missing here? No: in a 12-game match between opponents of equal strength, a one-game advantage is so great that this happened, only within games rather than between them.

Though Judith Polgar, for example, disagrees with me, I think that for many of those who understand chess the fighting draws were not a problem. Nevertheless, I predict that this match will, like Karpov-Kasparov 1984, induce a change in the format of the classical world championship. Sponsors want not just to maintain the audience of capable chess players that existed in the past, but to draw in a more ignorant audience as well; and they also want low overhead costs. They are, in other words, naturally greedy, and to get what they want they have already cheapened the championship by shortening the matches . They will probably view this match as a fiasco despite widespread interest and apparent good revenues, if only because they could have made even more money if there had not been 12 classical draws. Thus I think some change is afoot.

Whatever Magnus may want, for myself I only hope that the change is to a longer classical match format, for example as proposed by Seirawan, rather than to something approaching the abolition of the classical chess championship altogether and the extinction of the Steinitz line.

Meanwhile, congratulations to the great Magnus!
« Last Edit: 11/29/18 at 03:19:28 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #46 - 11/28/18 at 19:04:05
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Agreed.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #45 - 11/28/18 at 18:41:15
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The championship format should be a champion vs challenger match, but 12 games is just too short.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #44 - 11/28/18 at 18:29:23
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That was brutal.

Should silence most of Carlsen's critics for now.

Long-term I still think they need to rethink the championship format. Draw upon draw in the classical games is a hard sell in today's hectic media scene, even though many of the games were real fights.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #43 - 11/28/18 at 18:28:28
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Well there you go, taking the draw in move 12 was more than correct. What a slaughter.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #42 - 11/28/18 at 16:32:02
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Beautiful and instructive endgame in game one today, wow. That was impressive by Carlsen, and will be hard to recover from by Fabiano.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #41 - 11/27/18 at 22:51:27
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/27/18 at 16:13:23:
Obviously Carlsen is human too, and having offered a repetition earlier in the game, he obviously thought that a draw was a good result for him in game 12. Still with the situation in the board and clocks, I can't fathom not playing on for a while, unless there is some offstage factor, such as illness.

On reddit, someone suggested the draw offer to be some elaborate mind trick -
If they keep playing for 5 hours and end up drawing anyway (draw was still a favourite in the position they had), then Fabiano would get another boost of confidence, having held a difficult endgame, while Magnus would be even more frustrated.
Now instead, Carlsen can be happy with his game, and Caruana is left with disgust at his prep and a lingering feeling that he only made it out because of the mercy of his opponent, rather than his own ability.
This way, the draw offer would make a good bit of sense, 'manipulating momentum', and ending up advantageous for the tiebreaks tomorrow.
A similar story was told by Svidler about the Kasparov-Kramnik match, where Kramnik deliberately took a draw in 11 moves to unsettle Garry, as his mindset would've been a much better one had they played 4 more hours.
Still, it does feel rather constructed..

P. S. Regarding the 'objective' worth of the position, chesscom is playing a round robin event with all of its engines from the ComputerChessCh from the final position of G12.
Last I checked, the top engine matches (between Leela, Stockfish, Komodo, Houdini) have all been draws, and while the lower boards do have some decisive results, there are also several wins by White amongst those.
E: Alright, some Wins are creeping in for Black.. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/375393578391961600/517272621096763413/unk...
Unclear of course how good Engines are at defending a somewhat blocked position, but curious nevertheless.
« Last Edit: 11/28/18 at 11:08:53 by IsaVulpes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #40 - 11/27/18 at 22:35:37
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Stigma wrote on 11/27/18 at 20:01:05:
Sure! Some of the comments have been in long TV broadcasts that I can't track down now. But here are two online articles:

https://www.vg.no/sport/i/l12R4G/soesteren-frykter-carlsen-legger-opp-ved-vm-tap

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sporsmalet-carlsen-ikke-kan-tenke-pa_-_-det-kryper-inn-....

There's probably more in the podcast "Sjakksnakk" linked at the bottom of the NRK story. Also available here: https://radio.nrk.no/podkast/sjakksnakk . Episodes #1 and #4 look relevant here (but I haven't listened to them myself yet).


Takk!!  Grin


I thought about the draw offre a bit since yesterday's game. Of course Black is better in the final position, but it takes quite some work to win. Even though Carlsen is known to grind for hours in even more equal positions, I suspect he wanted to save energy for the rapids.

Quite a few games it was demostrated already that grinding in better positions produced draws. Maybe that means that both players are not in best form, but anyway perhaps he thought that saving energy was a better long term strategy.

I was thinking at first, Caruana cannot possibly be that bad at rapid and blitz, and surely at 2800+ that is not really possible. But then I looked through the YouTube and saw that Caruana had some problems against Aronian in the chess.com blitz match. Whilst last year Carlsen beat Nakamura in the final of that same online tournament. My guess is that Carlsen has seen the results of this and thinks he just need to rest and win handily in the rapid/blitz tomorrow.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #39 - 11/27/18 at 21:01:11
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P.S.: Anyone who wants a Norwegian perspective on the match and top chess in general, but in English, should check out anything written by GM Jonathan Tisdall (originally American, but lives in and plays for Norway) or Tarjei Svensen. Both are very active on Twitter: https://twitter.com/GMjtis and https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS . For instance:


Svensen on the very candid Magnus interview in the podcast Sjakksnakk, Ep. 1:

https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS/status/1054774095777329152

https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-insights-from-norwegian-podcast

Svensen on a VG interview with Magnus before the match:

https://twitter.com/TarjeiJS/status/1060179653304958976

https://en.chessbase.com/post/carlsen-insights-from-norwegian-vg-interview

Tisdall on the match:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/13-things-to-know-about-the-carlsen-vs-caruan...

https://www.chess.com/article/view/2018-world-chess-championship-halftime
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #38 - 11/27/18 at 20:01:05
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/27/18 at 19:36:43:
Can you link to the Norsk media ¿ Just curious to read what been said on newspaper or tv, I speak Norsk Smiley

Sure! Some of the comments have been in long TV broadcasts that I can't track down now. But here are two online articles:

https://www.vg.no/sport/i/l12R4G/soesteren-frykter-carlsen-legger-opp-ved-vm-tap

https://www.nrk.no/sport/sporsmalet-carlsen-ikke-kan-tenke-pa_-_-det-kryper-inn-...

There's probably more in the podcast "Sjakksnakk" linked at the bottom of the NRK story. Also available here: https://radio.nrk.no/podkast/sjakksnakk . Episodes #1 and #4 look relevant here (but I haven't listened to them myself yet).
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #37 - 11/27/18 at 19:36:43
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Stigma wrote on 11/27/18 at 17:13:22:
Both Carlsen himself and others who know him have been quite open, at least in Norwegian media, about what a blow it would be for him now to lose either the title, the number one spot on the rating list or both. There have even been speculations from close family and friends that he just might retire if he loses the match!


Can you link to the Norsk media ¿ Just curious to read what been said on newspaper or tv, I speak Norsk Smiley
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #36 - 11/27/18 at 18:06:08
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/27/18 at 16:13:23:
Rene, where does your 86% figure come from?  I personally do not think that Carlsen had a 14% chance of losing game 12 from the position that a draw was agreed,  so it's hard for me to understand him not playing on at least a few more moves.


There is an ELO match probability calculator here:

https://wismuth.com/elo/calculator.html#best_of=4&rating1=2880&rating2=2789

You leave the draw probability field blank for chess--it use an 0.6-pawn draw-odds advantage to calculate the draw probabilities. The calculator handles the combinatorics.

Based on ratings, Carlsen's probability of winning a four-game rapid match  is 65.84%, and his probability of drawing one is 22.02%; similarly, the probability of his winning a 2-game blitz match is 69.98%, and his probability of drawing one is 24.04%.

The first tiebreak is a four-game rapid match, and each of the second through sixth tiebreaks is a 2-game rapid match. The probability of Carlsen's winning in the tiebreaks before Armageddon is therefore

65.84% + 22.02% [69.98%+ (24.04% * 69.98%) + (24.04%^2 * 69.98%) + (24.04%^3 * 69.98%) + (24.04%^4 * 69.98%)]
=86.11%
« Last Edit: 11/28/18 at 16:33:27 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #35 - 11/27/18 at 17:13:22
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One major point missing from the discussion here: How important remaining world no. 1 on the rating list was to Carlsen.

Both Carlsen himself and others who know him have been quite open, at least in Norwegian media, about what a blow it would be for him now to lose either the title, the number one spot on the rating list or both. There have even been speculations from close family and friends that he just might retire if he loses the match!

If that's the kind of pressure he has put on himself in this match, when he finally faces an opponent that's almost his equal at classical time controls, the gravity of the situation in game 12 and the draw offer become a lot more understandable. Don't forget that with this draw Carlsen saved his no. 1 spot (in classical) at least for the time being, and some believe that's even more important to him than the title. He has after all suggested changing the World championship to a cup format before, which would increase the randomness and noticeably reduce his own chances of holding on to the title. In the three matches with Anand and Karjakin, on the other hand, there was no chance they would catch up with Carlsen on the rating list even if they had won the match in the classical games.

(Not that it matters nearly as much, but in rapid Magnus' no. 1 spot is quite secure, while in blitz Vachier-Lagrave in 2nd place is just two points behind him at the moment. [Source: https://2700chess.com/ ])

Of course, from a pure chess and spectator point of view I'm as disappointed as everyone else that he didn't play on with a great position both on the board and the clock. But it may be as much the current match system's fault as Carlsen's.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #34 - 11/27/18 at 16:13:23
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Obviously Carlsen is human too, and having offered a repetition earlier in the game, he obviously thought that a draw was a good result for him in game 12. Still with the situation in the board and clocks, I can't fathom not playing on for a while, unless there is some offstage factor, such as illness.

Rene, where does your 86% figure come from?  I personally do not think that Carlsen had a 14% chance of losing game 12 from the position that a draw was agreed,  so it's hard for me to understand him not playing on at least a few more moves.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #33 - 11/27/18 at 13:21:42
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 23:25:37:
How Magnus managed to be surprised by it anyhow.. is completely beyond me.

Well, let's be charitable for once; then the answer is quite simple. He's a honest guy and refused and forbade his team to look at the leaked information.

ReneDescartes wrote on 11/27/18 at 04:49:18:
It's not so much Carlsen's nerves as his inability to turn on a dime that showed here--and the clinical side of his competetive nature.

Yep. Carlsen is human too.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #32 - 11/27/18 at 04:49:18
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Kasparov lit into Carlsen on Twitter, but I calculate Carlsen's chance of winning the tiebreaks before Armageddon at  86%--including the brevity of the matches. Such odds are at least comparable to those in the complex Game 12 Sicilian position where Carlsen  offered a draw while holding a clear advantage.

Kasparov disparaged Carlsen's decision, but Kasparov never had such an option. His pride is that he triumphed in two decisive final games against Karpov, so naturally he suggests that that  is the most important skill. And if Carlsen wins, the latter will have defended his title four times, creeping up on Kasparov's five. It seems to me that Kasparov may be trying a little bit to induce an error (as when he taunted Anand in the match against Gelfand).

It's not so much Carlsen's nerves as his inability to turn on a dime that showed here--and the clinical side of his competetive nature.  Even if Caruana wins, that won't show  that Kasparov was right.
« Last Edit: 11/27/18 at 10:21:26 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #31 - 11/27/18 at 02:22:42
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/27/18 at 01:48:29:
At least this could show that playing as White is not as valuable in elite as it thought was be  Cheesy

Sadly, the opposite is the case.

The thing here is more that Caruana is content with "killing off the game" as Black in the Petroff/QGD, mixed with a certain amount of outpreparing that makes Carlsen take safe paths (like eg the ..Rd8 in the QGD), so Magnus doesn't get anywhere with White; while Carlsen's Black games in the Sveshnikov produce actual fights, where Carlsen is then able to outplay Caruana.
If Fabiano had a more "fighting" repertoire as Black, I figure we would see a lot more of White pressing (as we saw in G3 before Bd2?!, G8, G9 somewhat).

As I detailed in the Reddit thread on the previous page, the White advantage is actually a lot more substantial than those 53-55% percent for individual games you see in Databases of good openings.
I went through 29 elite events (basically every round robin I could find with 2600+ players of the last 3 years); counted the winners (40 total due to several shared first places), and looked at how many of those 40 were ones with an extra White, and how many had an extra Black.
The end result was 29:11 in favour of the extra White, or 72.5% of elite tournament winners having the luck of the draw.

To me, that is a much bigger issue than the count of draws..
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #30 - 11/27/18 at 01:48:29
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One interesting thing that I noticed in this match that is rare in elite chess, is that the players seem to do better with Black, as in getting better positions (sometimes winning ones). At least this could show that playing as White is not as valuable in elite as it thought was be  Cheesy
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #29 - 11/26/18 at 23:30:55
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IsaVulpes wrote on 11/26/18 at 23:25:37:
ErictheRed wrote on 11/26/18 at 22:05:01:
Today's game was a huge mystery to me, I really thought that Magnus would press and have good chances of winning.  My only guess is that something is going on off of the board that we aren't aware of, perhaps Magnus is sick or something like that.  Very strange, in my mind. 


Today's game was strange for sure, but even more confusing I found the game yesterday to be.

Magnus / his team MUST have seen that leaked video of Fabiano, and the one thing that it specifically mentioned was this Nd7-Nf6 line in the Petroff, after which ..c5 is by far the top move;

How Magnus managed to be surprised by it anyhow.. is completely beyond me.


Well, for game 11 Magnus might not have had time to prepare anything substantial, and given the match situation he seemed to be fine with a draw.  This game was very strange, because while I'm sure that Magnus would have been happy with a draw before it started, he had a serious, nearly risk-free way to push for a win and end the match.  I don't understand.

Today's game reminded me of a game from the first Carlsen - Anand match.  I think that it might have been game 3, when with an opposite-colored bishop position that was very advantageous for him, Anand didn't even try to press for a win.  See Grandmaster Har-Zvi's comments around 52 minutes into the video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nPwb1iujkk

This game reminded me of that scenario.  How much better of a postion is Carlsen hoping for to push for a win?  He must really have wanted the game to end and to get to rapids, for whatever reasons.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #28 - 11/26/18 at 23:25:37
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/26/18 at 22:05:01:
Today's game was a huge mystery to me, I really thought that Magnus would press and have good chances of winning.  My only guess is that something is going on off of the board that we aren't aware of, perhaps Magnus is sick or something like that.  Very strange, in my mind. 

Today's game was strange one for sure (even if you don't see a non-risky way of continuing the game, Black isn't gonna be worse if he just sits, and at least playing on until move 40 would've been rather sensible to me?), but even more confusing I found the game yesterday to be.

Magnus / his team MUST have seen that leaked video of Fabiano, and the one thing that it specifically mentioned was this Nd7-Nf6 line in the Petroff, after which ..c5 is by far the top move;

How Magnus managed to be surprised by it anyhow.. is completely beyond me.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #27 - 11/26/18 at 22:05:01
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Today's game was a huge mystery to me, I really thought that Magnus would press and have good chances of winning.  My only guess is that something is going on off of the board that we aren't aware of, perhaps Magnus is sick or something like that.  Very strange, in my mind.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #26 - 11/26/18 at 20:54:09
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All that being said, I do have two propositions, and would be curious what people think about them.

The first is for the WCh:
- Add a few games, and make it an *odd* number!
- The challenger gets an extra White
- In the event of a draw, the champion retains the title

"A few" here meaning play 15/17; if we reduce the amount of rest days a bit that wouldn't even necessarily lengthen the WCh by much.

This harks back to the olden times of draw odds for the champ (no need for tiebreaks; the WCh won't be decided by Armageddon ever, etc), but softens them a bit, by giving the Challenger something to work with (extra white), which at the same time symbolizes that he is the one "pushing".

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

The second is for classical chess as a whole:
- I made a Reddit Thread about this a while back, if you want to read the "full story": https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/9r53bz/saving_classical_chess_introducin...

The TL;DR is:
- Roughly halve the thinking time of players
- Instead of playing just 1 game against an opponent, you always play two; one with each colour, directly after one another (well, with a 15 minute break in between or w/e maybe)
- Scoring adds up the results of the 2 games and just takes the end result; ie 2-0 is a "Win" just the same as 1.5-0.5 is one
(Basically, turn every single game into a WorldCup-style minimatch)

That achieves
- More mistakes (thus more decisive results), easier to follow, etc, due to the shorter time control
- Remove White/Black imbalance, because you play each opponent with both colours
- A lot more "intrigue", as losing the first 'plygame' means that you can go all-out in the second one (drawing the second will after all still result in an overall loss; so it's all-or-nothing going for a win in g2, to at least achieve a 1-1)
- Pretty much a removal of stuff like "I'm tired and have White, I'll just force a quick draw", as now the colours just switch and your opponent gets to play White against you
- And a bunch more stuff

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Would be curious to hear what better players think in particular about the second suggestion. Personally I would be very curious to see a supertournament be played in that fashion, and think it's a lot better of a suggestion than eg what NorwayChess implemented for its next rendition (Armageddon after every draw).
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #25 - 11/26/18 at 20:07:08
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Can anyone work out why the draw was agreed today ? Surely it is all to play for in the final position especially for Black ?
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #24 - 11/26/18 at 20:01:19
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My net half-died for most of the week and during the working moments I preferred to actually watch the match rather than typing here, so forgive me for a bit of silence and now a bunch of responses

Dink Heckler wrote on 11/20/18 at 15:11:42:
If they are unwilling to take a couple of risks here and there, classical chess will wither and die.

This seems like a very strange statement to me, given the way the games actually went.
Magnus played the Sveshnikov in every game, rather than the Berlin or the Petroff, which already kind of hints at "taking a couple risks here and there".

Magnus was winning in G1,
Caruana played b2-b4!? in G5,
Magnus "just" managed to hold a seemingly lost endgame in G6,
Caruana was 'close to winning' (feel free to debate the semantics) in G8,
G10 was just a wonderful slugfest all-around.

Magnus' White games have been a disappointment, but in 4/6 of his black games we got a lot of game going, with G3 just falling short due to Caruana's Bd2?!, and G12 having all the makings for an excellent game but then Carlsen cutting it short due to nerves or whatnot.

Would this have been 'the demise of classical chess' if Carlsen had managed to convert G1, and Caruana had converted G8, leaving us with 10 draws / 2 wins, as has been "common" in the past?

The problem, to me, has less been the lack of risk, and more that they flaundered at the decisive moments and failed to convert much better positions. 

Carlsen-Karjakin was truly a rather boring WCh to me, with Karjakin just set on playing for draws, and every game being a Ruy Lopez, but I really don't see how this match has been worse than Carlsen-Anand I/II, Kramnik-Leko, Anand-Gelfand, or countless many more; which all had similar scorelines to this one, except people converted their few winning positions; in fact I'd happily argue that we had a lot more "fighting chess" than in the majority of those matches.

Kasparov-Kramnik featured 2 wins and 13 draws, with none of Kasparovs White games being "anything", and including draws after 11(!!) and 14 moves. Is that a "cherry picked example"?
Is this match really "the absolute nadir of classical chess", just because Carlsen and Caruana both missed one big chance each?

barnaby wrote on 11/20/18 at 15:59:17:
Like tennis and golf chess should just hold series of elite events and declare a world number 1 based on rating.  Even Carlsen has claimed he finds it more important to himself to hold the highest rating that the title.

This isn't all too wrong, but on the other hand the Classical WCh is just about the only thing that interests "the general public". If you remove it, chess will disappear from the public eye entirely.
Nobody will watch those random elite events; while the WCh does get lots of viewers on Twitch, press coverage, etc.

In the same vein, this would force a complete restructuring of our current tournament landscape, as you obviously can't just play round robins then but need 10 different "World Cups" as Tennis does it, and that causes an entirely new set of problems.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #23 - 11/26/18 at 18:50:08
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Regarding today's draw:

"This is the cherry, not the nail, on top of the coffin of classical chess." -- Alexander Grischuk (chess24 stream)

"In light of this shocking draw offer from Magnus in a superior position with more time, I reconsider my evaluation of him being the favorite in rapids. Tiebreaks require tremendous nerves and he seems to be losing his." -- Kasparov (https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1067125702712004609)
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #22 - 11/26/18 at 18:47:26
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/26/18 at 04:52:43:
But it all ended in a draw, since both of them are that good, especially in defending.

I've got the impression they are better in defending than in attacking...
I hope this was the last game in this format
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #21 - 11/26/18 at 12:32:57
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Garry, what do you make of this match?

https://twitter.com/espnuk/status/1066991711929466880
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #20 - 11/26/18 at 10:28:55
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/26/18 at 04:52:43:
In the game 10st, I thought that Caruana might lose due to time pressure plus the load of centre pawns going down the board. And then suddenly I thought Carlsen might lose due to losing all of the pawns several moves later.


44...Kd4 was really strange, I thought Black was better after the obvious 44...g6, instead, but apparently it is just a draw anyway if White plays precisely.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #19 - 11/26/18 at 04:52:43
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In the game 10st, I thought that Caruana might lose due to time pressure plus the load of centre pawns going down the board. And then suddenly I thought Carlsen might lose due to losing all of the pawns several moves later.

But it all ended in a draw, since both of them are that good, especially in defending. Sometimes I feel like some just want a result at all costs, even if one of the players commits a hara-kiri on the board, in the chess sense of course, such as hanging material for absolutely no reason. To me, such an occurrence would be poor chess, not the constant draws.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #18 - 11/25/18 at 21:24:23
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I've not been active in this thread, even though I've followed the match relatively closely.

I think it's been great. I suspect that all the people complaining about the drawishness are focussing too much on the results, but not on the chess. It's been fighting chess, mostly at a very high level. Neither player has played negatively. I've enjoyed this match. Very much looking forward to tomorrow's game.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #17 - 11/23/18 at 00:39:24
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Carlsen played Sweshnikow two times no ¿ And a Benoni ¿ (or am I mixing it up)

But all of the games regardless of opening ended up in a draw. The fact is that both of the contestants are rated almost the same, and both have excellent defensive skills. When both are good at defence, losing is something that would only happen if one blatantly went insane and messed up their position trying to win an objectively drawn position.

The round 10nd was interesting, an example of sharp game where anyone could have won. But as said before, since both are good at defence, barring complete lunacy like the 1th match of Fischer v. Spassky in Reykjavík 1972, neither would concede a loss so easily.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #16 - 11/22/18 at 22:41:07
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mn wrote on 11/22/18 at 18:24:16:
In 1927, Alekhine and Capablanca drew something like 15 of 16 consecutive games. All games in that match but 2 were QGDs.

In 1984, Karpov and Kasparov made 17 draws in a row.

If this is classical chess dying really it's been dead for years.


Sure, you can carefully cherry-pick a couple of examples from the last 100 years to argue that the current match isn’t the absolute nadir of World Championship chess, but that isn’t really a strong argument. Further, those matches were not being played for multimillion dollar purses, ie they were rather akin to the glass bead game played in a dusty tower for the approbation of one’s peers, as I referenced upthread.

If you were to rank all the WC matches post-WW2 by sporting interest, most of the most recent matches would cluster near the bottom. That’s a real problem.

  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #15 - 11/22/18 at 20:29:51
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mn wrote on 11/22/18 at 18:24:16:
In 1927, Alekhine and Capablanca drew something like 15 of 16 consecutive games. All games in that match but 2 were QGDs.

In 1984, Karpov and Kasparov made 17 draws in a row.

If this is classical chess dying really it's been dead for years.

I think the problem is that what used to be rather rare has become very common (at least in WCh matches)
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #14 - 11/22/18 at 18:24:16
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In 1927, Alekhine and Capablanca drew something like 15 of 16 consecutive games. All games in that match but 2 were QGDs.

In 1984, Karpov and Kasparov made 17 draws in a row.

If this is classical chess dying really it's been dead for years.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #13 - 11/22/18 at 18:05:10
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although this is a nice game of course, dangerous for both sides
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #12 - 11/22/18 at 16:38:45
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Dink Heckler wrote on 11/22/18 at 08:54:23:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/18 at 19:55:59:
I hear a lot about how it is not entertaining chess.

But pretend you were in their shoes, probably facing opponent with many seconds as analyists for openings, plus 3500 rated or whatever computers to cross-check analyses for opening preparation. Would you still take risks in opening just to mont a spectacle to the public ¿ What happens if you took a risk like that and lost in 20 moves ¿ To me that would be disastrous both publicly and chess-wise.


I have already freely conceded that there's a logic to what they are doing. However, if you fully accept this premise as you've laid it out (can't afford to risk anything over the board because of the resources brought to bear off the board), then classical chess really would be facing an existential crisis.

The bottom line is interest is minimal - look at this thread; if it wasn't for me pissing and moaning, there'd be like five comments, and hardly anyone has so much as discussed the details of any of the games. Classical chess is dying, and 'stock market chess' is helping to kill it.

I have to say I tend to agree, at least about this kind of 2-player match, an 8-player double-round-robin tournament to determine the world champion might be an idea. But in the end perfect chess just happens to be a draw (look at correspondence chess), so non-perfect chess is needed to keep it interesting...
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #11 - 11/22/18 at 08:54:23
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 11/20/18 at 19:55:59:
I hear a lot about how it is not entertaining chess.

But pretend you were in their shoes, probably facing opponent with many seconds as analyists for openings, plus 3500 rated or whatever computers to cross-check analyses for opening preparation. Would you still take risks in opening just to mont a spectacle to the public ¿ What happens if you took a risk like that and lost in 20 moves ¿ To me that would be disastrous both publicly and chess-wise.


I have already freely conceded that there's a logic to what they are doing. However, if you fully accept this premise as you've laid it out (can't afford to risk anything over the board because of the resources brought to bear off the board), then classical chess really would be facing an existential crisis.

The bottom line is interest is minimal - look at this thread; if it wasn't for me pissing and moaning, there'd be like five comments, and hardly anyone has so much as discussed the details of any of the games. Classical chess is dying, and 'stock market chess' is helping to kill it.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #10 - 11/20/18 at 23:53:28
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I for one am enjoying this match.  Every year we complain about the number of draws, but these have been fighting games by and large, and a high percentage of draws is the nature of the game when played at this level.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #9 - 11/20/18 at 19:55:59
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I hear a lot about how it is not entertaining chess.

But pretend you were in their shoes, probably facing opponent with many seconds as analyists for openings, plus 3500 rated or whatever computers to cross-check analyses for opening preparation. Would you still take risks in opening just to mont a spectacle to the public ¿ What happens if you took a risk like that and lost in 20 moves ¿ To me that would be disastrous both publicly and chess-wise.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #8 - 11/20/18 at 15:59:17
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There is just no reason anymore to have these two person World Championship matches and if the whole thing goes down to an Armageddon game that is really is just a big joke to have played these classical games.

Like tennis and golf chess should just hold series of elite events and declare a world number 1 based on rating.  Even Carlsen has claimed he finds it more important to himself to hold the highest rating that the title.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #7 - 11/20/18 at 15:11:42
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I think we have this discussion every WC match  Smiley

I read Hubner's comments yesterday:
"It is not, however, the goal of the World Championship participants to entertain the spectators as effectively as possible. They are concerned with achieving the best possible result. It seems to me a strange contradiction to demand, on the one hand, the content of the games be "thrilling" when, on the other hand, recognising that the element of competition is paramount. If the result is the most important thing, you have to leave it to the players how they want to pursue their goals; they will know best."

,which of course is correct in a Platonic sense. At the same time, these guys aren't playing the glass bead game in a dusty tower for the approbation of their peers; they're playing for millions of dollars in front of a global streaming audience. If they are unwilling to take a couple of risks here and there, classical chess will wither and die.

Alex Baburin wrote something similar the other day.
Of the recently concluded Shenzen super tournament, he wrote:
There were only 6 decisive games in
this tournament (20%). I think that such
format (closed tournament with a few
top players) is in crisis and does not
create much interest among the chess
public.

I tend to agree with this. Tournaments like Linares used to generate massive interest, now it seems hardly anyone gives a damn about these tournaments. The WC could easily go the same way.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #6 - 11/19/18 at 15:34:26
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+1 for Jupp. If this were a 20- or 24-game match, the players would not have to be quite as circumspect. But regardless, I like strategic endgames, and without being incautious they've been fighting hard. Game 6 was amazing. I also find these games more comprehensible than the ones with Karjakin.

Stylistically, it's sort of like watching a Lasker-Tarrasch match, but with a young, supercharged Tarrasch who is the equal of Lasker. I'm rooting for Magnus, though.
« Last Edit: 11/19/18 at 18:21:14 by ReneDescartes »  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #5 - 11/19/18 at 11:21:10
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Without any ranting in your direction or anyone having a different opinion: I like the fighting chess on a high level. This is what happens if players are strong enough to avoid mistakes.

The pity are the rules leading to an armageddon game. The younger ones here will see days, where the world champion in chess will be the winner of such a ... unhappy event.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #4 - 11/19/18 at 10:47:03
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I’m sure some purists will admonish me for being a plebeian, and tell me this is all wonderfully subtle and tense, but I’ll continue to maintain we’re being served up a bunch of crap which is hastening the demise of classical chess.
  

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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #3 - 11/11/18 at 22:29:47
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It's been a great so far. Going for the wins straight from game 1. No tip toeing around, trying to size each other up. Also nice to see that black has been the one pushing in both games. Maybe Adorjan has a point.
  
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #2 - 11/11/18 at 10:20:47
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I don't blame Carlsen for avoiding 11 Nd2 d4 in Game 2 without first examining the consequences with a computer.
I wonder what he had planned against the trendy 10...Re8(!)?
  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
Reply #1 - 11/10/18 at 20:18:22
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Hi.

Nice games so far. Could become a very good match.

Have a nice evening.
  
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IsaVulpes
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World Championship / Carlsen-Caruana
11/10/18 at 19:22:16
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Can't believe there's no thread about this yet!

G1 was a Rossolimo (! Carlsen might be serious about spending more time in the Sicilian - wonder if that half-implies that also his recent dabblings in the French will have a future) in which Carlsen played truly excellent chess until he gave up a pawn for what seemed to me like little reason.. then I sadly had to leave, but from what I hear he was still better for a long time, until at some point it fizzled out into a draw - although Magnus decided to torture Fabi for 7 hours to finally get there.

G2 was a QGD (perhaps Carlsen hoped bait Caru into 4. ..dxc4? He's been the major defender of the Vienna-cause at top level) where Caru heavily outprepared Magnus with 10. ..Rd8!?
The (perhaps?) critical moment arose in this position:
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Where both Leela and SF9 state that the only way for White to maintain equality is 17.Nxf7!? Kxf7 18.Bxd6 Rxd6 19.Bh5+ Kg8, followed by 20.e4 or 20.c4 and a total mess.
Carlsen decided against this - whether because he expected Fabi to still be in prep and didn't feel like testing himself in a tactical position against a 3500 rated opponent, or because he disliked something about this line - and went with 17.Bf3 instead, after which he was slightly worse; in the end though, the position simplified quite quickly into a drawn Rook endgame, where Caru didn't feel like prodding too much - no revenge for R1 Wink

So far a highly promising match; much more entertainment than the Carlsen-Karjakin one was. Looking forward to seeing what else those two have in store for us!
  
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