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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Reverse Dragon (Read 2429 times)
MNb
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #13 - 11/23/18 at 18:40:40
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One specific line that might work for Black is 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.d3 f6 8.O-O Be6 9.a3 (iso 9.Be3) Qd7 10.b4/10.Re1 O-O-O.
  

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RdC
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #12 - 11/23/18 at 17:39:48
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MNb wrote on 11/23/18 at 16:13:41:
[quote author=1E280F4C0 link=1542882903/0#0 date=1542882903]
Addressed in my first comment: 2...f5!? The knight is scarier on f6 than on b6.


I use the move order 1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5. It's to avoid the position arising after 1. c4 e5 2. Nf3
  
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MNb
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #11 - 11/23/18 at 16:13:41
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RdC wrote on 11/22/18 at 10:35:03:
Why is the idea of 7. .. Be6 not more popular? The aim is to follow up with .. Qd7, 0-0-0, and if allowed to open the h file, sac, sac, mate as Fisher once described a plan against the Dragon. At the very least, at levels below titled players, it may force players of the English out of a comfort zone of slow positional play.


RdC wrote on 11/23/18 at 11:11:53:
9. ..0-0 remains possible.

Thanks for confirming my objection to your first comment.

RdC wrote on 11/23/18 at 11:11:53:
a target for f5-f4.
it's wimpy players of 1. c4 you're trying to frighten and panic into going excessively passive.

Addressed in my first comment: 2...f5!? The knight is scarier on f6 than on b6.
  

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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #10 - 11/23/18 at 11:11:53
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MNb wrote on 11/23/18 at 06:35:08:
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.d3 Be7 8. O-O Be6 9.Be3


9. ..0-0 remains possible with the Bishop on e3 a target for f5-f4.

It may be bluff, but in the line with 9. .. Qd7 10. Ng5, there's still the idea of .. Bh3 and .. h5. Experienced Dragon players might not be bothered, but that's not the target audience, it's wimpy players of 1. c4 you're trying to frighten and panic into going excessively passive.
  
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MNb
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #9 - 11/23/18 at 06:35:08
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6.Be2 Bg7 7.Nb3 O-O 8.Be3 Nc6 9.Qd2 Ng4 scores 5 wins for White, 4 draws, 11 wins for Black in my database.
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 5.cxd5 Nxd5 6.Bg2 Nb6 7.d3 Be7 8. O-O Be6 9.Be3 Qd7 10.d4 and I wish you good luck castling queenside. Instead 10.Ng5 Bxg5 11.Bxg5 f6 12.Be3 O-O-O 13.Ne4 threatens 14.Nc5 and hence is also somewhat better for White, without a trace of an attack for Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #8 - 11/22/18 at 23:12:21
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snakebite wrote on 11/22/18 at 19:25:20:
[quote author=526443000 link=1542882903/3#3 date=1542884568]
I guess it all depends on how "well read" the white player is.  If he plays the Dragon or has some knowledge of typical Dragon attacking plans it could be very risky playing this way as black. 


That was my conclusion as well. I think it's possible to throw in a bit of deception though. You play .. Nb6 which is normal, Be6 which is unusual nowadays. Before playing Qd7 and 0-0-0, you play Be7. Again this still looks normal. The idea is after Ng5, you go .. Bxg5 and then .. f6. It's an occasional idea in the Dragon itself. Also you may not actually play .. f6, there's an old idea from the Dragon where White can still play h2-h4 and threaten h4-h5 with a Bishop on e2 and pawn on f2.

In a recent game where I tried this system, my opponent played the obliging idea Nf3-d2-e4. Later I was able to play f7-f5 gaining time on the Knight.
  
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snakebite
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #7 - 11/22/18 at 19:25:20
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RdC wrote on 11/22/18 at 11:02:48:
I guess another way of thinking about it is what would you think of the following game?
1 e4 c5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 cxd4
4 Nxd4 Nf6
5 Nc3 g6
6 Be3 Bg7
7 f3 00
8 Qd2 Nc6
9 Bc4 Bd7
10 000 Rc8
11 Bb3 Ne5
12 h3 and then 13 h4.

What if Black gave the tempo back with 12. or 13. .. a6? A Dragon player would know that except for some lines of the Soltis, playing .. a6 is usually too slow. An English player could find slow moves like a3 and b4 natural.

I've concluded it's a possibly risky way to play for a win, but you aren't sacrificing material and the loss of tempi means you could call off the attack without your position being compromised.

I was also thinking that .. Nb6 isn't such a waste of time, given that it inhibits d4. I may even check its playability as Nb3 with White.


I guess it all depends on how "well read" the white player is.  If he plays the Dragon or has some knowledge of typical Dragon attacking plans it could be very risky playing this way as black.  Although ...a6 ideas are slow in the Dragon, white will have time for a3 and b4 due to the extra tempo - will that make a difference?
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #6 - 11/22/18 at 17:16:45
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There was a second edition of Levy's book in '76.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #5 - 11/22/18 at 17:08:21
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Back in the day I saw New England legend John Curdo play precisely your idea as black. His amateur opponent played a couple of natural but inaccurate "English" moves and was swiftly mated. As a novice with an 1196 rating and Levy's The Sicilian Dragon on my bookshelf, I knew that black was playing "inaccurately" and a tempo down to boot. Most probably white also knew the same. But not all English players are suited to the Open Sicilian. Interestingly, Curdo's white repertoire against the Sicilian was based on 3.Bb5(+), so this was unquestionably a case of playing the man.

BTW, google says Levy's book was published in 1972, but I don't think so. I distinctly remember Rd3! from Karpov-Korchnoi being in there, which would make it 1974 at the earliest.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1067858
Maybe there was an earlier edition than the one I had.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #4 - 11/22/18 at 16:55:09
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I notice that in Tiviakov's B75-76 monograph from the '90s, he gave 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. Nb3 as favorable for Black after 9...Be6, e.g. 10. 0-0-0 a5! =+ Geller.

Edited to add:  this 9. Nb3 appeared in Chess Publishing in June and Sept. 2018 (including a case of White being successful with the 11. a4 approach against the above line).
« Last Edit: 11/23/18 at 01:45:18 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #3 - 11/22/18 at 11:02:48
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snakebite wrote on 11/22/18 at 10:43:07:
I guess another way of thinking about it is what would you think of the following game?
1 e4 c5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 cxd4
4 Nxd4 Nf6
5 Nc3 g6
6 Be3 Bg7
7 f3 00
8 Qd2 Nc6
9 Bc4 Bd7
10 000 Rc8
11 Bb3 Ne5
12 h3 and then 13 h4.


What if Black gave the tempo back with 12. or 13. .. a6? A Dragon player would know that except for some lines of the Soltis, playing .. a6 is usually too slow. An English player could find slow moves like a3 and b4 natural.

I've concluded it's a possibly risky way to play for a win, but you aren't sacrificing material and the loss of tempi means you could call off the attack without your position being compromised.

I was also thinking that .. Nb6 isn't such a waste of time, given that it inhibits d4. I may even check its playability as Nb3 with White.
  
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MNb
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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #2 - 11/22/18 at 10:43:26
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Being almost two tempi down (Nd4-b3 is not exactly the most popular move after 6.f3 Bg7 7.Be3 O-O 8.Qd2 Nc6) is not a good start for a pawn storm.
As I am well below the level of titled players I've looked at ways to get English players out of that comfort zone. My proposal is 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3/g3 f5 as in several positions the minus tempo actually benefits Black. Example: 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 f5 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.e3 d5!? and the bishop is better on f8 than on b4 or c5!
  

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Re: Reverse Dragon
Reply #1 - 11/22/18 at 10:43:07
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Well black will be a tempo down on a standard Yugoslav attack.  Whether white will actually take advantage of this is another matter.
I guess another way of thinking about it is what would you think of the following game?
1 e4 c5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 cxd4
4 Nxd4 Nf6
5 Nc3 g6
6 Be3 Bg7
7 f3 00
8 Qd2 Nc6
9 Bc4 Bd7
10 000 Rc8
11 Bb3 Ne5
12 h3 and then 13 h4.
  
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RdC
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Reverse Dragon
11/22/18 at 10:35:03
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In the common sequence, 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nb6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. 0-0, almost everyone recently continued with 7. .. Be7.

Why is the idea of 7. .. Be6 not more popular? The aim is to follow up with .. Qd7, 0-0-0, and if allowed to open the h file, sac, sac, mate as Fisher once described a plan against the Dragon. At the very least, at levels below titled players, it may force players of the English out of a comfort zone of slow positional play.
  
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