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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Austrian 150 Attack (Read 1809 times)
MartinC
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #11 - 01/08/20 at 20:22:56
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Actually Tiger doesn't recommend going for a6 and b5 if white delays going Nc3 in various classical set ups either.

It does all seem a tiny bit impractical.
  
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #10 - 01/08/20 at 01:37:03
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RdC wrote on 01/07/20 at 22:40:46:
To what extent would there be general agreement that the only viable lines of the Modern are the Tiger treatment with .. a6 and the Hippo treatment with the double fianchetto and playing Nd7 and Ne7?

Ugh. Assuming white goes for either the Averbakh or Austrian setups, I have doubts that Tiger's ...a6 is viable. At the least it is risky. Certainly Tiger agrees that against the Averbakh black must transpose to the King's Indian. I haven't studied Tiger's lines against the Austrian (I don't play that way as white), but I did look superficially at his analysis, and the whole thing looks dodgy. Maybe with perfect play black can equalize, but I wouldn't bet on it. Transposing to the Pirc and playing 5...c5 looks solid enough, maybe just not enough winning chances for Tiger?

And against those same two setups, without doubt the double fianchetto (so-called "Hippo") is not viable. Experimental at best. Black is not equalizing, and might get blown away by resolute play.

Against simple classical play -- white holds back both the f-pawn and the c-pawn -- it's a different story. But in that case black has a wide choice of viable defenses.

Not directly related to your question, but black doesn't always have to play ...Nd7 and ...Ne7 in the double fianchetto.
  
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mn
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #9 - 01/07/20 at 23:58:40
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...c6 and ...d5 lines are viable afaik
  
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RdC
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #8 - 01/07/20 at 22:40:46
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RdC wrote on 12/17/18 at 12:53:46:
I've been experimenting with playing e4, d4, Nc3, Be3 and now f4.


More on this.

In a Modern move order, the game went 1. e4 d6 2. d4 g6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Be3 c6 5. f4

Whilst 4. .. a6 is more likely, setting up  a Tiger Modern, the older idea would have been 5. .. Qb6. 6. Rb1 was usually played, but Anand once tried 6. a3

In the event my opponent went 5. .. Qc7 and perhaps unsurprising got rapidly crushed.

To what extent would there be general agreement that the only viable lines of the Modern are the Tiger treatment with .. a6 and the Hippo treatment with the double fianchetto and playing Nd7 and Ne7?
  
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RdC
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #7 - 12/17/18 at 18:05:06
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mn wrote on 12/17/18 at 17:03:39:
Yep, I agree 5...b5 is very possible as well.


I faced this last weekend in the London FIDE Open and elected for the very 150ish move 6. Bd3

The game went 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 c6 5. f4 b5 6. Bd3 b4 7. Nce2 Bg7 8. Nf3 a5 9. 0-0 Ba6 10. Kh1 and now my opponent decided to fix the central pawns with 10. .. d5. It didn't work that well as after 11. e5 Ng4 12. Bg1, White seemingly has an edge.
« Last Edit: 12/18/18 at 09:24:56 by RdC »  
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mn
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #6 - 12/17/18 at 17:03:39
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Stigma wrote on 12/17/18 at 16:56:32:
@mn: Good points.

After 4...a6 5.f4 I think Black should consider a couple of other moves instead of 5..Ng4, namely 5...b5 or 5...d5!?.



Yep, I agree 5...b5 is very possible as well. IMO 6 e5 is strong in reply (6...b4 7 Qf3), but admittedly I haven't analyzed this in detail. 5...d5 I'm not sure I've seriously considered, it certainly looks interesting.
  
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #5 - 12/17/18 at 17:01:11
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[re:RdC] That's true. I would argue, however, that first of all, that 6 Qd2 also runs into 6...Ng4, while if you're going to play a move like a2-a3, you may as well have played the (slightly more useful?) move h2-h3 on move five.
  
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #4 - 12/17/18 at 16:56:32
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@mn: Good points.

After 4...a6 5.f4 I think Black should consider a couple of other moves instead of 5..Ng4, namely 5...b5 or 5...d5!?.

I have dabbled a bit in 4.Be3 a6 as Black, and had the most problems with 5.h3 in practice, but that doesn't have to mean anything.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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RdC
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #3 - 12/17/18 at 16:47:53
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mn wrote on 12/17/18 at 16:35:40:
while on 4...c6, White does have to play h2-h3 first, because of 5 f4 Qb6!, when (e.g.) 6 Qc1 takes away the retreat square for the Bishop; therefore 6...Ng4!


Other ideas for move 6 in that position are 6. a3, 6. Qd2 and even 6. b3 . An engine would try 6. b3 Ng4 7. Qd2 .

It's unexplored territory.
  
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mn
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #2 - 12/17/18 at 16:35:40
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After 4...a6, White doesn't necessarily have to expend a tempo on h2-h3; 5 f4(!) right away seems strong to me [On 5...Ng4, just 6 Bc1 and despite the extra tempi, Black's position makes a strange impression], while on 4...c6, White does have to play h2-h3 first, because of 5 f4 Qb6!, when (e.g.) 6 Qc1 takes away the retreat square for the Bishop; therefore 6...Ng4!

Meanwhile, yeah, switching to an Austrian Attack after 4...Bg7 5 f4 Ng4 makes less sense than the above, IMO, when Black has played the more "purposeful" ...Bg7, which he wants to do against the Austrian anyway, rather than the "slower" ...a6 or ...c6. But the good news is ...Bg7  strengths the Qd2/Bh6 plan!
  
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Re: Austrian 150 Attack
Reply #1 - 12/17/18 at 16:00:23
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It is of course a well-known setup, but the consensus seems to be that White should either have the g1 square free for a bishop retreat or prevent ...Ng4 with an early h3.

So you get respected lines like:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be3
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Bg7 6.f4
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 a6 5.h3 intending f4

If you end up having to retreating to c1 as you say, isn't that in effect a tacit draw offer, just as in the Najdorf line 6.Be3 Ng4 7.Bc1 ? For instance after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.f4 Ng4 6.Bc1 (not 6.Bd2? Bxd4) Black has a pleasant choice between repeating with 6...Nf6 and looking for something better. Off the top of my head 6...0-0 7.Nf3 c5 looks promising, while 7.h3 or 7.Be2 to force the knight back would arguably be suboptimal moves for White in an Austrian attack.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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RdC
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Austrian 150 Attack
12/17/18 at 12:53:46
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I've been experimenting with playing e4, d4, Nc3, Be3 and now f4.

It's not mentioned much in books, as chapters on the 150 Attack concentrate on the regular themes without mentioning the f4 idea whilst the Austrian attack material doesn't have much, if anything,  to say about Be3.

You have to be prepared to retreat the Bishop after .. Ng4, to g1 if that square is free, otherwise d2 or c1.
  
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