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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Chess Architecture (Read 3973 times)
Stigma
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #26 - 01/27/19 at 03:29:03
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 01/27/19 at 02:52:15:
Stigma wrote on 01/27/19 at 02:01:46:
Skilled blitz players spot candidate moves virtually instantly. I'm not going to put a number on it, but we're talking milliseconds, not seconds.

I need to think faster.

Smiley

Blitz is largely intuition though? Especially the selection of candidate moves? I'm sure you've got plenty of fast intuition.

Of course even blitz requires some calculation to check the candidate moves further in sharp positions, but only what little the time control allows.
  

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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #25 - 01/27/19 at 02:52:15
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Stigma wrote on 01/27/19 at 02:01:46:
Skilled blitz players spot candidate moves virtually instantly. I'm not going to put a number on it, but we're talking milliseconds, not seconds.

I need to think faster.
  
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Stigma
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #24 - 01/27/19 at 02:01:46
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RdC wrote on 01/27/19 at 00:50:26:
curmudgeon39 wrote on 01/26/19 at 18:28:10:
regarding my claims of saving time calculating moves.


Skilled Blitz players can spot candidate moves within 5 to 30 seconds. With time to spare you try to sort the wheat from the chaff.

That can't be right. Skilled blitz players spot candidate moves virtually instantly. I'm not going to put a number on it, but we're talking milliseconds, not seconds.
  

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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #23 - 01/27/19 at 00:50:26
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curmudgeon39 wrote on 01/26/19 at 18:28:10:
regarding my claims of saving time calculating moves.


Skilled Blitz players can spot candidate moves within 5 to 30 seconds. With time to spare you try to sort the wheat from the chaff.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #22 - 01/27/19 at 00:15:32
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Now I have read it and give my thoughts:

1. If Norman's model is a good as promising, why isn't it the center of applied psychological research and practise?

The model is one of many based on the simpler model of Miller, Gallanter and Pribram. This integrated memory research and added new ideas not coming from behaviorism and was one of the starting points of cognitive psychology.

T(est) O(perate) T(est) E(xit)

Test over the situation. Do an operation. Test again - if you are not content operate again, if you are content Exit.

Now this model gets 70 next year and there is a lot of knowledge gained. The advantage of the model was its empirical character. People do act, thinking is a way to act, in this way often. As it has it constraints by nature - models are always simplifications of the reality - there were soon several ideas trying to expand the model. Some of this tries were successfully in helping to create new research ideas. But over all they are a part of psychological history today. "Ahh, another flow chart. That's what we waited for." This sentence was said at my side when someone introduced his new integrational model of cognitive psychology. They are today more a way to represent ideas.

2. Normative models lack of evidence

Positive is the idea of creating good habits.

Negative is the at will selection of processes. There is a fit to human thinking but no evidence why to take this steps. Especially problematic is the missing link to human short  term or working memory. There is a note about automatic thinking, but there is no strong link to the knowledge about it.

So there is a complete lack of empirical evidence why to walk this steps in this order. There is some logic behind it. So you can go this way to observe yourself. Maybe you find some nuggets, maybe you find only cat's gold.

"• But to create a good habit it is best to go through the entire cycle on each move."
Really? There are positions where you do a tactical operation for three or four moves and restart then with checking your evaluation. So I would bet you will find positions where a good habit should branch, at least to prevent Zeitnot.

Resumee 1

There is a good or bad habit in enterprise seminars held about psychology. The teacher is a economist or a lawyer. Seldom a psychologist. The reason is the psychologists education. S/he tells that there are constraints, which spoils the fun.

Resumee 2

I have my own experience with those models. If you work through them goal oriented you will find something good. But there is a very good reason putting them away after this. Let's take Kotow. Looking for candidate moves and calculation economical is reasonable. Doing this exactly in the proposed way will make you a loser after some time of growth.

At the level of 1800-1900 in tactical problems on chess.com I made an experiment with myself. To build up better thinking habits I started 7 weeks solving 6 days 15 minutes positions with searching possible checks first. The seven weeks were based on psychological research about habit creating. I jumped up to my personal top of around 2200. Now five years later this helps me calculating in puzzles and games. For health reasons I cannot tell anything about otb games. I told this in several fora and when meeting chess players. To my knowledge no one has tried to check out, if this works for him. As a psychologist I see several problems. There is no guarantee this works for you. Probably the effect will be lower if you are a stronger player. Maybe the Polgar book with checkmates has been worked through at the beginning of your chess studies and this is only spoiling time, etc., etc.

My assumption is, that you, Keith McCaughin, want to give something back to the chess community. You had a lot of fun and put good work into this paper. So I hope someone has a good use for it. But I assume too, it will be similar to my experience. Maybe a good trainer detects and uses an aspect of your work. Maybe four weeks are enough in my case. We will not see what happens in 20 years.
  

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curmudgeon39
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #21 - 01/26/19 at 18:28:10
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Here is my response to “an ordinary chess player” regarding my claims of saving time calculating moves. I cite GM Igor Smirnov and Yury Markushin as the source of these claims but I agree. Here’s how. If the strategy is:
•      Capture then you only need to calculate moves that capture in forcing move order.
•      Attack then you only need to calculate attacking moves in forcing move order.
•      Maximize Activity (usually of your least active piece) you need only calculate moves for your weakest piece or pieces.    
All other moves have been eliminated at the goal or strategic levels. I hope this helps.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #20 - 01/26/19 at 17:41:04
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Here is research supporting the Chess Architecture requested by “an ordinary chess player.” Barbara Oakley’s book, A Mind for Numbers, concludes that only when we go back and forth between both modes (of thinking: focused and diffused) are we really learning.  The four levels of the Chess Architecture shift from focus at the operational level through less focused modes at the tactical and strategic levels to a diffused focus at the Goal level. This is going back and forth between both modes on every chess move. The diffused mode(s) without the focused mode is limited as we do not have a firm foundation in which to build knowledge.  The focused mode without diffused mode(s) severely limits our ability to progress as it doesn’t allow us to think creatively, nor does it allow us to find and connect concepts and neural pathways.
In a study conducted by Northwestern researchers, participants with diffused attention scored much higher on the Creativity Achievement Questionnaire than participants in a focused attention mode, with IQ being the controlling variable. 
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #19 - 01/25/19 at 21:51:33
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Sorry for the misunderstanding; I was talking to Tony. I have no comment on your piece.
« Last Edit: 01/26/19 at 02:46:21 by ReneDescartes »  
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curmudgeon39
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #18 - 01/25/19 at 21:46:51
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My paper is about learning a way of thinking that builds good chess habits and may help break bad ones. It helps me. I am 80 years old and no longer play tournament chess but play online. All of the chess information in my paper is standard material available from any number of other sources. My paper is not about learning to play chess. It is about learning to think in a clear and unambiguous way while playing chess. The Action Plan demonstrates how it can be used in play. The Short Plan is a memory aid during the learning-to-think process. There are no chess diagrams, just graphics to illustrate the thinking process within the context of an architecture.
A Google search on Kotov, Purdy, Avni, Aagard, Heisman, Nunn, Dvoretsky, Beim, Soltis, Dorfmann, Tisdall, Yusupov, and Shereshevsk found no reference to “architecture."
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #17 - 01/25/19 at 17:53:27
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Kotov, Purdy, Avni, Aagard, Heisman, Nunn, Dvoretsky, Beim, Soltis, Dorfmann, Tisdall, Yusupov, and and Shereshevsky have all written on this topic, I think all usefully for the practical player (all are at least FIDE masters, by the way).

I have a feeling that frustration when nothing's working followed by forgetting your analysis and plonking down a rejected move is also what just happened to Anand against Carlsen in Wijk (2019, round 10). Doesn't everyone do that when they're tired?
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #16 - 01/25/19 at 17:50:55
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I have previously looked at Yury Markushin's https://thechessworld.com site, and generally find it well done. Some of the articles are clearly not aimed at my level, but others I find quite interesting. Much of the free content is by titled players, and I suppose most of the paid content as well.

It would be a shame to have the Chess Architecture thread derailed by a tangent on Yury's qualifications. The quoted "Principles of Chess Strategy" I infer came from a paid course by GM Igor Smirnov obtained via Yury Markushin. So a slip-up here on chesspub identifying Yury Markushin as GM should not matter, the principles could still be relevant. I have no objection to what I could see of the "Principles", in fact I would be interested to read the originals. But I was concerned about the claims made in Chess Architecture for how they would improve calculation. Those claims might also be correct, but in my view this needs supporting evidence.

Lots of thinking systems get proposed in chess as well as in other domains. To my mind part of the charm of chess is that there is no systematic thought process which will always arrive at the best move. Different positions require different means to the end:
  • brute force - sometimes width and sometimes depth
  • flight of fancy - the aha!
  • recalling a theme
  • balancing of conflicting positional factors

and so on.

Elaborating a little on my original comment in Reply #6... If someone puts forward a system, they need to show how it actually works for chess, otherwise I am not interested. If they make claims for results from adopting the system, they need to provide at least some evidence that those claims are correct, otherwise at best it's just wishful thinking. My 2 cents.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #15 - 01/25/19 at 11:20:16
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RdC wrote on 01/25/19 at 10:13:21:
GMs by no means all think the same way.

I sometimes think that my thought processes can be very inefficient. In one game in the Cap D'Agde tournament last November I realised that my planned variation only led to a drawn rook endgame. I rejected the other obvious variation because it lost immediately, then looked around for other moves to keep the game alive. Nothing was any good so I decided to play the losing line to keep the game going!! Of course, I had forgotten that I'd already rejected it, until the instant I actually played it!
I remember reading Kotov when I was young, and trying to 'think like a GM' but it didn't work for me. Still, I'm open to any ideas to help improve our way of playing chess, even if it is almost certainly too late for me! Sad
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #14 - 01/25/19 at 10:13:21
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msiipola wrote on 01/25/19 at 07:20:44:
Do a 1900-player know this?


You might think that if you did have a valid insight into how GMs think, that the author could get to FM standard (2300) at the very least.

This is the link
https://thechessworld.com/articles/training-techniques/5-ways-to-start-thinking-...

Something not mentioned is the concept of "making it work". In other words the idea mentioned by some GMs of trying little skeleton tactics, finding where they fail and improving the move order or piece placement so they succeed.

GMs by no means all think the same way.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #13 - 01/25/19 at 07:20:44
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Yury Markushin is writing articles on chessworld.com.
Like "5 Ways to Start Thinking Like a Grandmaster".
Do a 1900-player know this?
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #12 - 01/24/19 at 23:02:29
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curmudgeon39 wrote on 01/24/19 at 14:42:30:
He is a USCF rated National Elo 1949.


I'm sure there are readers of this forum who would only take his opinions and judgements seriously if he were rated 400 to 800 points higher.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #11 - 01/24/19 at 14:42:30
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Yury Markushin is not a GM. He is a USCF rated National Elo 1949. Sorry for the error.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #10 - 01/24/19 at 13:08:46
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normative
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #9 - 01/24/19 at 07:59:33
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Marcellus wrote on 01/23/19 at 15:05:26:
Markushin is definitely not a GM.

while Norman is in his field.

A question, as I will read the paper later after some other stuff: Is the model normative, i.e. tells it how you should think, or is it empirical, i.e. based on how chess players think and humans think over all? If it is normative it would be the first model working for humans.
  

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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #8 - 01/23/19 at 15:05:26
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Markushin is definitely not a GM.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #7 - 01/23/19 at 14:57:02
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The Seven stages of Action are well established by Donald Norman in the Design of Everyday Things. The principles of Chess strategy are derived from chess Grand Masters Igor Smirnov and Yury Markushin and they are cited on the paper.   
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #6 - 01/19/19 at 19:24:43
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I'm not discounting it. But I have some very specific criticisms.

1. It is quite abstract. For me it calls to mind the 7 layers of the OSI model. The OSI model *classifies* all the steps, but real-world implementations do not *necessarily* follow the model. What is lacking in the paper is tying the Chess Architecture model to real-world thinking about chess positions. It needs lots of examples, annotated with thinking that follows the model. The 1.e4 e5 tables on pages 4-5 are just a toy example, and not very well done either, as pointed out by RdC.

2. It makes claims for results which are completely unfounded.

Quote:
The planning levels exist simultaneously outside of time but are executed in sequence in time. The mind is capable of thinking about all previous positions on the chess board at any time using the brain's memory. So if the positon [sic] on the board does not change significantly or you anticipate moves ahead of them actually occurring, you do not need to go through all seven steps of action, you can act immediately or at any level based on prior knowledge or anticipated actions. But to create a good habit it is best to go through the entire cycle on each move.
--page 2
Well actually it's not at all certain that the seven steps are a good habit to cultivate. That's the sort of claim that needs evidence to back it up.

Quote:
Principles of Chess Strategy guide and constrain the selection of candidate moves. They will improve your play dramatically, save you time in selecting from fewer and prioritized candidate moves and their calculation, and point you toward only the best candidate moves.
--page 28
This is an even more sweeping claim, and it just begs for some examples of before and after usage of the Principles.

Overall I found the proposed thinking model(s) interesting, but unconvincing as a results-oriented plan of action. My own knowledge of practical psychology, as well as my own experience of what is required to find a good chess move, speaks against the method. So I would like to see some, ideally many, real chess examples analyzed before I seriously engage with the ideas presented.
  
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curmudgeon39
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #5 - 01/19/19 at 16:03:40
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My level of chess play is what caused me to realize I have a lot of bad habits that I wish I could overcome. As an engineer I decided to see if my experience in Enterprise ARchitecture might apply to chess. Please read the paper before and think about it before you discount it.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #4 - 01/18/19 at 09:30:06
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phonological_loop wrote on 01/18/19 at 04:21:37:
More substantively, do we have any evidence that top players think in anything like these terms, or that this thought process is beneficial?


The paper recommends 1. e4 on the grounds that it releases the Queen and a Bishop. I'm inclined to think "so what". 1.d4 leaves the pawn defended by the Queen, whilst 1. c4 and 1. Nf3 are less committal as to where the central pawns go.

Perhaps the paper reflects the chess understanding of someone not capable of playing to a higher level than 1400.

From playing at a 2000 level for fifty years, I would say my basic evaluation is to count the pieces and pawns. That's an advantage to the side having more of them unless there are special features. Evaluating "special" features can be the difficult part.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #3 - 01/18/19 at 05:28:41
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To be fair, it would seem that the author has been as high as 1401.

  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #2 - 01/18/19 at 04:21:37
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It is somewhat odd to read an article about the "key to playing chess at a consistently high level" written by a 1350 rated player (according to the USCF player database).

More substantively, do we have any evidence that top players think in anything like these terms, or that this thought process is beneficial?

Typically when one writes an academic paper, it begins with a survey of existing work and an identification of the novel methodological contribution. I do not see any discussion of prior work here, which is again odd, because quite a bit has been written about the chess thought process.
  
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Re: Chess Architecture
Reply #1 - 01/14/19 at 13:26:12
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Do people really follow a move procedure on every move? Like the 'Chess Architecture'?

I have tried to follow different move selection guides, but not with a great success. When the game start to be sharp and tense, I often forget do the move selection steps.


  
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Chess Architecture
01/14/19 at 10:19:59
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There is a free paper on 'Chess Architecture' by Keith McCaughin to download: https://www.chesspublishing.com/content/chess_architecture.htm
Discussion here, please.
  
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