Latest Updates:
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten (Read 603 times)
gillbod
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 108
Joined: 03/26/13
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #10 - 02/03/19 at 20:02:40
Post Tools
Very helpful. Thank you!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
phonological_loop
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 36
Joined: 09/10/17
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #9 - 02/03/19 at 15:30:12
Post Tools
The Evans is mentioned only in that example game and in a note later in the "Overview of the Italian Game" chapter where Grooten gives 4...Bxb4 5. c3 followed by 6. d4 and then says more coverage may appear in a future book. The two knights with 4. Ng5 is covered in great detail. The open and exchange spanish are given as asides (just a few moves into the main lines of each, with the main ideas described). The center attack is not covered.

The variations discussed in chapter 5 of the queen's gambit book are:
Tartakower
Lasker
Tarrasch
Noteboom
Ragozin
Cambridge Springs
Carlsbad
Rubinstein
Vienna (4. Nf3 dxc4).

I have only glanced at that chapter so far but did not see discussion of deviations prior to those, except in the context of move order and transposition issues.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gillbod
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 108
Joined: 03/26/13
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #8 - 02/03/19 at 10:36:04
Post Tools
I have a quick question for owners of these books

I was expecting the Spanish/Italian volume to only cover Lopezish type positions from the Italian. But reading previous posts, it seems like the Evans  is covered too. So I guess the book covers more, like Two Knights Italian with 4.Ng5, Spanish Exhange, Open Spanish, Centre attack etc?

Similarly for the Queens Gambit volume. Can someone please clarify what structures the queens gambit volume covers? Are things like the Triangle Marshall attack, Chigorin and Albin covered, or is it more ‘traditional’ structures only?

I do like the book concepts, but am worried that they attempt to cover too much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ReneDescartes
God Member
*****
Offline


Qu'est-ce donc que je
suis? Une chose qui pense.

Posts: 986
Joined: 05/17/10
Gender: Male
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #7 - 02/01/19 at 23:37:39
Post Tools
5...Bc5(clearly !?, not ?)  is one of Bologan's two main defenses against the Evans in Bologan's Black Weapons; he calls the move romantic. But doesn't the quote in fact skip any evaluation of the position after 8...d6  ? (I think 7...d6 here is just a move order which Grooten is recommending if you do go this way, one that usually transposes.)

It's the initial question mark on move five that is weird. Maybe Grooten just thinks it's too chaotic for the target audience.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
phonological_loop
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 36
Joined: 09/10/17
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #6 - 02/01/19 at 17:44:18
Post Tools
That's exactly the passage I was thinking of.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4387
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #5 - 02/01/19 at 17:28:21
Post Tools
phonological_loop wrote on 02/01/19 at 16:10:50:
First, I don't think the annotations of some of the lines in the two example games at the beginning are totally objectively correct (I checked with Stockfish), however probably are they "practically correct" in the sense of being useful for educational purposes.


This reminds me of something I noticed in the sample of the Dutch edition.  Basically it goes like this:  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4 Bxb4 5. c3 Bc5? 6. 0-0 Bb6 7. d4 ed (preferable is 7...d6) 8. cd Qf6 (necessary is 8...d6).  So one might think that at move 8 Black is already in big trouble.  I'm far from an expert on the Evans, but I thought that 5...Bc5 is supposed to be okay, and that the position after 8...d6 (which once upon a time was called the "normal position") is supposed to be about equal.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
phonological_loop
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 36
Joined: 09/10/17
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #4 - 02/01/19 at 16:10:50
Post Tools
I skimmed both volumes and have some new comments to share.

The second volume seems to be a clear improvement on the first. The editing and English are much better (although there are still some weird things like some paragraphs appearing lighter than others, I guess because they were a different color in the original manuscript). The book is about 200 pages compared to the first's 150 pages, so there is also more content. Further, since the QG is a more "closed" opening, I feel the "plan based" approach to exposition works better. As someone who has exclusively played 1. e4, it was a welcome introduction to this opening complex.

The first volume is more of a mixed bag. I've read until the collection of annotated games at the end in some detail, and this produced a few more complaints. First, I don't think the annotations of some of the lines in the two example games at the beginning are totally objectively correct (I checked with Stockfish), however probably are they "practically correct" in the sense of being useful for educational purposes. Second, the treatment of the Italian game and (especially) the Ruy Lopez seemed rather superficial. He covers all main variations, but a player could definitely not use this as a repertoire book. Maybe the annotated games section will help here somewhat. (I suppose it is not the goal of the book to provide a repertoire. But when there are other books on the Ruy Lopez that will give both a repertoire *and* explanations of the ideas, one wonders why one should buy this one...) Third, in many cases the explanation for a move is "grandmaster experience" or something empirical, and the superiority of the move can't easily be justified by a simple verbal explanation. I suppose this is inevitable, since chess is a concrete combinatorial game, but on the other hand it appears one does need to memorize moves at certain junctures.

(It occurred to me after writing that paragraph that I may be being overly critical. After all, I am not the target audience, since I have played my share of 1. e4 and am reasonably familiar with the constellation of openings that it produces. Naturally I will pick up on more omitted details than with the QG book. For someone who has never looked at these openings it is probably a fine introduction.)

However, the treatment of the two knights defense is exceptionally detailed and a club player could easily use this as a repertoire book, especially as white. Certainly there is more detail than e.g. Moret's white repertoire book in this line.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
msiipola
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 75
Joined: 10/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #3 - 02/01/19 at 12:15:21
Post Tools
phonological_loop wrote on 02/01/19 at 02:28:13:
I suppose because they are targeted more toward the novice and club player crowd (which I can confidently claim membership in).

The aim is to give detailed explanations of the various "theoretical" moves and why they are preferred, and also to illustrate the main ideas and pawn structures that arise from these openings in a way that mid-1000s level players can understand. 


These will probably be popular books for beginner and club players. Exactly what they need for their chess improvement. (irony)  Wink
« Last Edit: 02/01/19 at 18:22:57 by msiipola »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10307
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #2 - 02/01/19 at 11:00:03
Post Tools
"however this has caused me no problems in understanding the chess content"
That's fortunate, because Dunglish is a peculiar language.

https://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2015/04/08/dunglish-27-funny-examples-that-will...

Serious though - Grooten is an excellent educator on middle games. His goal is to improven Euwe's famous educational books (famous at least in The Netherlands) and to modernize them. He has succeeded.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Full Member
***
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 190
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: "Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
Reply #1 - 02/01/19 at 04:55:33
Post Tools
I have the two books in Dutch, they called Begrijp wat je doet and to me it seems like it can be for any level who wants to learn the ideas of those types of openings, even if you higher rated but not familiar with Open games or Queen's Gambit structures. It reminds me of a pawn structures book.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
phonological_loop
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 36
Joined: 09/10/17
"Understanding Before Moving" series by Grooten
02/01/19 at 02:28:13
Post Tools
Hello friends. I wanted to call your attention to the "Understanding Before Moving" series of books by Herman Grooten, published by Thinkers Publishing. Currently two volumes are available, the first on Ruy Lopez and Italian Game structures and the second on the Queen's Gambit. These were published late last year and I have not seen any discussion on here, I suppose because they are targeted more toward the novice and club player crowd (which I can confidently claim membership in). A total of 16 volumes are planned in the series.

The aim is to give detailed explanations of the various "theoretical" moves and why they are preferred, and also to illustrate the main ideas and pawn structures that arise from these openings in a way that mid-1000s level players can understand. Grooten speaks of players memorizing opening moves without understanding their content, and getting lost as soon as they leave theory. As you may guess from the title, Grooten aims to remedy this. Several annotated GM games are featured.

I am not very far into the first book, but I will try to finish both soon and post more detailed comments later. My initial impressions are quite positive. I think Grooten hits his target. I only have two complaints so far. The first is that the English translation and copyediting is poor, however this has caused me no problems in understanding the chess content. The second is that the price seems to be about $25-30, and this is quite hefty for a book with "spaced out" typesetting that is not even 150 pages long.

Chessable also carries the book in their proprietary training format, and one of their staff members (IM John Bartholomew) has a nice video review of the first book: https://www.chessable.com/understanding-before-moving-1-ruy-lopez-italian-struct...

In particular by watching him scroll his screen you can see most of the contents of the book. (I have no affiliation with Chessable [or the author or publishing company] and obviously one should be wary of reviews by people attempting to sell the product in question. I mention it only because I found it informative prior to purchasing the book.)

If anyone has questions about either volume, please ask and I will do my best to answer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo