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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero (Read 7450 times)
ReneDescartes
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #13 - 02/06/19 at 03:16:34
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Plus, he wrote Zero Hour for Operative Opening Models! More than coincidence? I think not! Wink
  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #12 - 02/06/19 at 01:43:14
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Jonathan Tait wrote on 02/05/19 at 23:39:20:
Well, perhaps I'll push my h-pawn down the board even more than I usually do Smiley


It used to be something of a Larsen speciality to prod the rook pawns down the board. But like Alpha Zero, he was self-taught, mostly at least.
  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #11 - 02/06/19 at 00:42:20
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I wonder if soon human players can train with such strong computerprogrammes and learn how to "think" like computers and then play like computers.


It would be amusing to see GMs next having trained so much to think like computers, that their moves are the first lines of engine analyses  Cheesy
  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #10 - 02/05/19 at 23:39:20
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Yes, I'm reading it at the moment – very, very interesting – though I can't say yet whether it will change my play at all. Well, perhaps I'll push my h-pawn down the board even more than I usually do Smiley
  

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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #9 - 02/05/19 at 17:15:20
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barnaby wrote on 02/05/19 at 15:54:04:
I have already significantly changed my own playing style including opening repertoire and middle game planning with highly successful results, all based on studying AZ games.  I just put my rating at its all time peak, which is something most people close to 60 years old do not find so easy to do, and I attribute much of it to the change in my play that I decided to make after spending months studying these games.

AZ is an absolute game changer (for those of us willing to change our game).


Could you comment on what you've learned and changed, if you have the time? I'd be extremely interested in what you have to say, and I'm sure others would too.
  
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barnaby
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #8 - 02/05/19 at 15:59:09
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/04/19 at 23:43:21:
  I don't think that Magnus is honestly trying to think like a computer program.



I believe he is, very much so, and there is serious evidence both in his games, and his interviews that this is indeed the case.
  
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barnaby
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #7 - 02/05/19 at 15:54:04
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brabo wrote on 02/05/19 at 09:19:35:
tipau wrote on 02/05/19 at 08:49:37:
I'm very much looking forward to reading this book. I've found Sadler's previous books very instructive and a joy to read - I'm sure he'll have some very interesting observations about arguably the strongest chess playing entity in existence today.

I liked Sadler's book Chess for Life as I mentioned in the article https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2016/06/peakrating.html
However this book is advertised as it is a must to read if you want to become a stronger player which I believe is nonsense.
tipau wrote on 02/05/19 at 08:49:37:
Clearly it's much harder to explain to Magnus how he can play better chess than is it for a relative patzer like me. I imagine that he wouldn't benefit nearly as much as me from reading other books on chess either. The fact that the book didn't turn him into AlphaZero isn't a negative, but the fact that he was inspired enough to think about it during the game is very interesting.

It reminds me of some of my students rated around 2000 elo and lower which wanted to follow courses aimed for +2400 players from a 2600 player. They were just baffled by the content and couldn't keep their attention in the courses. In the end they didn't like it. I think here it will be the same. The stuff Alpha Zero can teach you will be way above the standard stuff most of the amateurs don't know yet. Besides it is like with the tablebases available today. We have them but no human is able to reproduce them during the game nor even understand them.

Also do you really think that Magnus was serious when he stated that he was thinking how Alpha Zero would approach his position. Maybe for a second yes but I am pretty sure he was just focused on his own calculations. Magnus likes to fool around just check his many streaming videos.

Finally I am sure the book still has interesting content. Seeing some new themes, openingideas are always useful but it is not something which you can't find anywhere else and which will suddenly improve your chessrating with 100 elo. Also his previous book was very easy to read and enjoyable. I think that are already sufficient reasons to buy it but stop pretending it is some holy grail.



100% disagreement here on your main argument.

This information absolutely is a game changer for a wide range of players at a very wide range of skill levels.

And yes, Carlsen was drop-dead serious as a heart attack and so are other GM's I spoke with who have made same claim that they have been in positions and have thought what AZ would be playing//planning in that situation.

I have already significantly changed my own playing style including opening repertoire and middle game planning with highly successful results, all based on studying AZ games.  I just put my rating at its all time peak, which is something most people close to 60 years old do not find so easy to do, and I attribute much of it to the change in my play that I decided to make after spending months studying these games.

AZ is an absolute game changer (for those of us willing to change our game).


  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #6 - 02/05/19 at 15:32:53
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Have a look at Sadler's analysis of some of the games at Youtube, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkK8M0dMhAX8JinU-6aD7xA and see for yourself. I think both the games and analysis are very interesting. I expect the book to be similar in style and content.

  

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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #5 - 02/05/19 at 13:38:38
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brabo wrote on 02/05/19 at 09:19:35:
The stuff Alpha Zero can teach you will be way above the standard stuff most of the amateurs don't know yet.


I think I disagree. It's possible to learn relevant things from MUCH stronger players. This is because they won't only play out-of-this-world chess, but they'll also do the basics incredibly well. If this wasn't true then I'd also be wasting my time studying games of the World Champions. An important part is the author and if they can demonstrate a particular theme/lesson clearly and make it understandable in a way you can learn from and (hopefully) apply in your own games. Of course you may be just as well served by studying a good book about Botvinnik (for example) rather than Alpha Zero, but I guess right now this is a sexier option and attractive to people.

brabo wrote on 02/05/19 at 09:19:35:
I think that are already sufficient reasons to buy it but stop pretending it is some holy grail.


I haven't claimed anything of the sort. What I've seen suggests that the book is marketed as a similar book to 'Chess for Life'. I enjoyed that book and learnt a few things from it - that's why I'm looking forward to getting this book, not because I'm expecting my rating to sky-rocket after reading it!
  

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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #4 - 02/05/19 at 09:19:35
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tipau wrote on 02/05/19 at 08:49:37:
I'm very much looking forward to reading this book. I've found Sadler's previous books very instructive and a joy to read - I'm sure he'll have some very interesting observations about arguably the strongest chess playing entity in existence today.

I liked Sadler's book Chess for Life as I mentioned in the article https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2016/06/peakrating.html
However this book is advertised as it is a must to read if you want to become a stronger player which I believe is nonsense.
tipau wrote on 02/05/19 at 08:49:37:
Clearly it's much harder to explain to Magnus how he can play better chess than is it for a relative patzer like me. I imagine that he wouldn't benefit nearly as much as me from reading other books on chess either. The fact that the book didn't turn him into AlphaZero isn't a negative, but the fact that he was inspired enough to think about it during the game is very interesting.

It reminds me of some of my students rated around 2000 elo and lower which wanted to follow courses aimed for +2400 players from a 2600 player. They were just baffled by the content and couldn't keep their attention in the courses. In the end they didn't like it. I think here it will be the same. The stuff Alpha Zero can teach you will be way above the standard stuff most of the amateurs don't know yet. Besides it is like with the tablebases available today. We have them but no human is able to reproduce them during the game nor even understand them.

Also do you really think that Magnus was serious when he stated that he was thinking how Alpha Zero would approach his position. Maybe for a second yes but I am pretty sure he was just focused on his own calculations. Magnus likes to fool around just check his many streaming videos.

Finally I am sure the book still has interesting content. Seeing some new themes, openingideas are always useful but it is not something which you can't find anywhere else and which will suddenly improve your chessrating with 100 elo. Also his previous book was very easy to read and enjoyable. I think that are already sufficient reasons to buy it but stop pretending it is some holy grail.
  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #3 - 02/05/19 at 08:49:37
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I'm very much looking forward to reading this book. I've found Sadler's previous books very instructive and a joy to read - I'm sure he'll have some very interesting observations about arguably the strongest chess playing entity in existence today.

Clearly it's much harder to explain to Magnus how he can play better chess than is it for a relative patzer like me. I imagine that he wouldn't benefit nearly as much as me from reading other books on chess either. The fact that the book didn't turn him into AlphaZero isn't a negative, but the fact that he was inspired enough to think about it during the game is very interesting.
  

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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #2 - 02/04/19 at 23:43:21
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I took Magnus's comment to mean something similar to how we all look at an open position and say, "How would Morphy handle this?"  Or at a closed position and ask, "How would Karpov (or Petrosian, etc) handle this?"  I don't think that Magnus is honestly trying to think like a computer program.
  
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Re: New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
Reply #1 - 02/04/19 at 20:54:51
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phonological_loop wrote on 02/04/19 at 18:47:50:
but specifically whether it might help improve the play of the average club player, since the book is marketed in this way (partially)

Yes the advertisements also refer to a recent quote made by worldchampion Magnus Carlsen: “Quite inspirational. I was thinking at several points during the game [in Round 11 of the 2019 Tata Steel Chess Tournament]: how would AlphaZero have approached this?”

However in the same interview he also stated later: "and then I realized I'm not AlphaZero" see https://www.chess.com/news/view/tata-steel-chess-giri-catches-carlsen-as-shankla... I mean this more or less nullifies the previous statement.

Now if Magnus tells us that he can't see how AlphaZero can explain him how to play better chess then I am really skeptical why mere mortals would be better in understanding Alpha Zero.
  
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New book "Game Changer" on Deepmind's AlphaZero
02/04/19 at 18:47:50
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Hello, I was wondering if anyone has gotten their hands on a copy of the new book "Game Changer" yet? I'm in the US and preordered a copy from Amazon, where it will be released on the 15th of this month, but my impression is that those in the UK already have access to it. It is also available on Chessable and Forward Chess.

I am interested in any impressions of the book you might have, but specifically whether it might help improve the play of the average club player, since the book is marketed in this way (partially). Also, are there any interesting observations on opening theory?
  
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