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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF (Read 18723 times)
MNb
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #30 - 12/06/19 at 03:18:50
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 12/05/19 at 23:01:28:
Bickering is free speech though.

Irrelevant. First of all a forum is rather an enlightened dictature (in the end GM Kosten decides and no one else). In the second place I do allow bickering; I don't allow bickering going off the raiils. And the personal attacks I removed, whether justified or not, totally qualify as such in my view.
If this discussion continues I'll move it to ChessPub.com Forum section.

BadDays wrote on 12/05/19 at 22:33:51:
With regard to the Dragon, has the fashionable line with 6.g3 Nc6 7.Nxc6!? been played in corr. chess recently? I'm sure it's objectively less critical than Shaw's mainline, but it appears to be an interesting try for White in over-the-board chess.

This might need it's own thread as well.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #29 - 12/06/19 at 00:48:40
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It is useful to view this forum as collaborative endeavour. Of discussion and mutual help.

No spilling of pints, no grumpiness, no insulting of grandmothers thanks. Avoid. 

Instead, yes, let's keep this positive, helpful and good-humoured. 


  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #28 - 12/05/19 at 23:01:28
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BadDays wrote on 12/05/19 at 22:33:51:
As someone who browses the forums regularly but posts rarely, it is quite discouraging to see how quickly some of these threads devolve into bickering


Bickering is free speech though. 

I mean, arguing on forums is mild. I read a few times that Kramnik and Topalow do not even shake hands when they play.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #27 - 12/05/19 at 22:33:51
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As someone who browses the forums regularly but posts rarely, it is quite discouraging to see how quickly some of these threads devolve into bickering... Thanks for keeping everything on the up-and-up, mods.

With regard to the Dragon, has the fashionable line with 6.g3 Nc6 7.Nxc6!? been played in corr. chess recently? I'm sure it's objectively less critical than Shaw's mainline, but it appears to be an interesting try for White in over-the-board chess.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #26 - 12/05/19 at 02:55:01
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XChess1971 wrote on 12/05/19 at 02:04:28:

And I am doing a lot by telling you already where is the mistake and where are the better options.

Okay, I agree. But you can expect only limited general comments from me, because I don't play this line with either color.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #25 - 12/05/19 at 02:43:57
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halbstark wrote on 12/01/19 at 13:36:57:
XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:


I checked Shaw's book. Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions I like the variation 14..Qc7 15.Bc5 Rfd8 16.Qh4 h6 17.g4 Nf4 (GM Ward prefers doubling rooks here. But in this position you are going to trade rooks anyway). And here 18.Bxe6 Nxe6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rxd8 Rxd8 21.Qf2 (Doesn't impress me AT ALL!)  21...Nd5 22.Bd2 (Shaw's novelty) is answered with 22...Qb6 (22...a5!?) 23.Re1 Nf4 is simply bad!.
Better options are:
a) 23...Qa6 (the most solid option I believe)
b) 23...Qd4
c)23...f6
d)23...f5
e)23...Kh7 (A complicated idea because you put your king away from the center)
I am respectful. But skeptical of people writing books!!!


Thx for sharing your analysis. Nice to see, that there are still players, who admire the dragon as much as I do. I don´t have Shaws book. But I just compared the lines you gave with SF. 23...Nf4 seems to lead to lead to a small advantage for white at best. Which of your suggestions, do you consider best? 23...Qa6 24.Kb1 does also seem to be slightly better for white for example. 

Overall I think black should have good chances in this Qh4-line in a practical game. I prefer 17...Rd7 btw to keep the tension. But I am not a correspondence player, so there might be the difference:)


These games would give you some idea. I even think that on them after 24.Kb1 Qb6 (goes back to keep the pressure on the White Queen) 25.c3 besides 25...Kh7 as played in those games. Other options are 25...Qa6 and 25...Qb5 eyeing d3.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #24 - 12/05/19 at 02:04:28
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 12/04/19 at 23:23:26:
Well put, MartinC. I was thinking along similar lines but didn't want to chime in for fear of offending anyone.

Somehow both halbstark and Ametanoitos had a strong reaction to XChess1971's post, where he listed 5 alternatives to 23...Nf4 and evaluated each, without further analysis. But I think they glossed over this part: 

XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:
Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions ...

In other words, he analyzed deeper, but then carried the evaluations back to move 23 and truncated. It's a fair way to summarize as a first presentation. Maybe if someone disagreed with one of those candidates then it would be time to present the analysis of that candidate. Otherwise, analyzing five or six different moves might be unproductive. Black only needs one to start.


My friend I clearly stated that you need to do your homework. I have done mine. And I am doing a lot by telling you already where is the mistake and where are the better options.
That's the whole point. Like when I told Bragesjo that in one of the books he mentioned they gave a 17...h6?! instead of 17...Rb8! in the 14.Kb1 Re8 line. Or when I mentioned that the "Sicilian Dragon Move by move" Didn't mention the critical lines in the Burnett.
Now tell me would you spent hundreds of hours analyzing positions and then give it away to people? I guess that by telling you where are the better options I already did a lot.
« Last Edit: 12/05/19 at 15:16:27 by XChess1971 »  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #23 - 12/05/19 at 01:56:52
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MartinC wrote on 12/04/19 at 22:12:38:
I have to say the general idea that there's no slightly better with words is a bit odd. I mean at move 1 you can categorically say that white is better and also nearly certainly say that its a draw with perfect play.

That sort of thing can still hold at move 20, if obviously less clearly. Things like how many viable challenging lines white has matter, how stable the advantage is etc. 

Somewhat less so in correspondence of course but anyway.


We are not talking about move 1 here. They are tabiya positions that need to be evaluated as better, equal or worse. And for that they have to be analyzed and tested. Obviously correspondence chess is a category where you will see how hard they will try to get a pull out of those positions.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #22 - 12/04/19 at 23:23:26
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Well put, MartinC. I was thinking along similar lines but didn't want to chime in for fear of offending anyone.

Somehow both halbstark and Ametanoitos had a strong reaction to XChess1971's post, where he listed 5 alternatives to 23...Nf4 and evaluated each, without further analysis. But I think they glossed over this part: 

XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:
Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions ...

In other words, he analyzed deeper, but then carried the evaluations back to move 23 and truncated. It's a fair way to summarize as a first presentation. Maybe if someone disagreed with one of those candidates then it would be time to present the analysis of that candidate. Otherwise, analyzing five or six different moves might be unproductive. Black only needs one to start.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #21 - 12/04/19 at 22:12:38
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I have to say the general idea that there's no slightly better with words is a bit odd. I mean at move 1 you can categorically say that white is better and also nearly certainly say that its a draw with perfect play.

That sort of thing can still hold at move 20, if obviously less clearly. Things like how many viable challenging lines white has matter, how stable the advantage is etc. 

Somewhat less so in correspondence of course but anyway.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #20 - 12/04/19 at 17:52:25
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halbstark wrote on 12/02/19 at 16:46:12:
XChess1971 wrote on 12/02/19 at 04:22:01:

On 17...Rd7 18.g5 doesn't appeal much to me. White gets a pawn in my position after the knight is traded on f6. I do not like the idea of giving my bishop either.


Black is already equal. There is no slightly better with words. It has to be proven with analysis;)

I agree, that g5 is one of the critical tries against it. But I like the fact, that the positions sharpens up after the check on f6. I guess black is fine and the pawn on f6 can be a target if White is not careful


I guess is a matter of taste. So far not my preferred line. Maybe in the future I might change my idea. Nowadays computer has a big impact on chess. And it is played a different way. Years ago you wouldn't find "jokers" to say I analyzed this position up tp depth 45. Years ago you had to use your own brain. There were no PCs. It is a shame that people claim that they analyze very deeply. When in fact was Stockfish or some other program that analyze for them.
I belong to the old school where everything was played with your own head and no computers! And I moved into the US 19 years ago. Right when computers started to get a bigger impact on chess! Today I am American.

  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #19 - 12/03/19 at 18:39:18
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Ametanoitos wrote on 12/02/19 at 20:53:12:
This line was analysed by me (I am a Corr IM), using IDEA with more than 10.000 nodes with analysis by Stockfish on depth 40 and above. This means than in many lines, the depth reached (from the initial position) was above 100, maybe even more. So, after your post, I am very skeptical about people writing in forums without providing strong arguments! Smiley

Guess what I am a SIM in correspondence with no title. I am very skeptical of your posting.


Note from the moderator: I don't allow bickering to go off the rails. Back to chess please everybody and specifically back to the Dragon.
« Last Edit: 12/04/19 at 06:46:32 by MNb »  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #18 - 12/03/19 at 15:49:34
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Pawnpusher wrote on 12/03/19 at 11:37:16:
Ametanoitos it is good to see you posting again!! I missed reading your views and ideas about various chess matters.

+1!!
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #17 - 12/03/19 at 12:23:39
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I appreciate it. I'll try to be more active again. At some point, I thought that the forum kind of died, so I wasn't checking it often... I am happy to see that there are still some valuable discussions going on.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #16 - 12/03/19 at 11:37:16
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Ametanoitos it is good to see you posting again!! I missed reading your views and ideas about various chess matters.
  
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