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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF (Read 2916 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #15 - 12/02/19 at 20:53:12
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XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:
bragesjo wrote on 02/17/19 at 12:35:20:
If I am to give an theoretical recommedantins, Jones books are the best books for black, I am even mentioned in them in at least 2 lines. Negis book for white is also helpfull for both sides where the books met.

For black vs Bc4 yugoslav I would recommended Topalovs Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system unless white plays h4 before 0-0-0 then I would recommend  h5 and Soltis variation.

For black vs 9 0-0-0 i would recommend d5.
If 10 Kb1 I recommend Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 exf6 system.
If 12 Bd4 lines I would recommend  Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 Na4 Qc7. I might not the most fun line to play but I think the position is balanced, it apperas to be  some hidden dynamic elemetns for black in the postion that compensated the worse pawn structure
If 10 Qe1 line I recommened e5, particaully since the trendy 14 Kb1 is not much to have for white since the position leads to very forced play after a5!! h4 Qc7!.

g4 Yugoslav I would recommend Be6.

For white I would recommend 9 0-0-0 yugoslav meeting d5 with Qe1 and play like Shaws book and thus playng  the old mainline with 14 Ne4 insted of the trendy 14 Kb1 in e5 line.


I checked Shaw's book. Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions I like the variation 14..Qc7 15.Bc5 Rfd8 16.Qh4 h6 17.g4 Nf4 (GM Ward prefers doubling rooks here. But in this position you are going to trade rooks anyway). And here 18.Bxe6 Nxe6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rxd8 Rxd8 21.Qf2 (Doesn't impress me AT ALL!)  21...Nd5 22.Bd2 (Shaw's novelty) is answered with 22...Qb6 (22...a5!?) 23.Re1 Nf4 is simply bad!.
Better options are:
a) 23...Qa6 (the most solid option I believe)
b) 23...Qd4
c)23...f6
d)23...f5
e)23...Kh7 (A complicated idea because you put your king away from the center)
I am respectful. But skeptical of people writing books!!!


This line was analysed by me (I am a Corr IM), using IDEA with more than 10.000 nodes with analysis by Stockfish on depth 40 and above. This means than in many lines, the depth reached (from the initial position) was above 100, maybe even more. So, after your post, I am very skeptical about people writing in forums without providing strong arguments! Smiley
  
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halbstark
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #14 - 12/02/19 at 16:46:12
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XChess1971 wrote on 12/02/19 at 04:22:01:
On 17...Rd7 18.g5 doesn't appeal much to me. White gets a pawn in my position after the knight is traded on f6. I do not like the idea of giving my bishop either.


Black is already equal. There is no slightly better with words. It has to be proven with analysis;)

I agree, that g5 is one of the critical tries against it. But I like the fact, that the positions sharpens up after the check on f6. I guess black is fine and the pawn on f6 can be a target if White is not careful
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #13 - 12/02/19 at 10:59:40
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bragesjo wrote on 02/20/19 at 15:01:40:
I am not shure about Alpha Zero, from what I know it never played neither Sicilian or French and nobody knows why.


Well, we can ask its junior cousin LC0 - it just seems to think all of 9 g4/o-o-o and Bc4 are worth ~60%. It doesn't even mind 9 Nb3 that much.

All in a variety of different ways.

Vaguely intriguing that it really doesn't like 13 Bc4 in the 9 o-o-o d5 10 Qe1 stuff all that much. Top line is running the h pawn to h6 while allowing Nxe3.

I've not given it that long mind, and I'm not quite sure if it understands these positions as well as some others.
« Last Edit: 12/02/19 at 15:22:17 by MNb »  
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XChess1971
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #12 - 12/02/19 at 04:22:01
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halbstark wrote on 12/01/19 at 13:36:57:
XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:
I checked Shaw's book. Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions I like the variation 14..Qc7 15.Bc5 Rfd8 16.Qh4 h6 17.g4 Nf4 (GM Ward prefers doubling rooks here. But in this position you are going to trade rooks anyway). And here 18.Bxe6 Nxe6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rxd8 Rxd8 21.Qf2 (Doesn't impress me AT ALL!)  21...Nd5 22.Bd2 (Shaw's novelty) is answered with 22...Qb6 (22...a5!?) 23.Re1 Nf4 is simply bad!.
Better options are:
a) 23...Qa6 (the most solid option I believe)
b) 23...Qd4
c)23...f6
d)23...f5
e)23...Kh7 (A complicated idea because you put your king away from the center)
I am respectful. But skeptical of people writing books!!!


Thx for sharing your analysis. Nice to see, that there are still players, who admire the dragon as much as I do. I don´t have Shaws book. But I just compared the lines you gave with SF. 23...Nf4 seems to lead to lead to a small advantage for white at best. Which of your suggestions, do you consider best? 23...Qa6 24.Kb1 does also seem to be slightly better for white for example.

Overall I think black should have good chances in this Qh4-line in a practical game. I prefer 17...Rd7 btw to keep the tension. But I am not a correspondence player, so there might be the difference:)


Black is already equal. There is no slightly better with words. It has to be proven with analysis. I do not have my laptop with me right now
. But on 17...Rd7 18.g5 doesn't appeal much to me. White gets a pawn in my position after the knight is traded on f6. I do not like the idea of giving my bishop either.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #11 - 12/01/19 at 16:52:37
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bragesjo wrote on 02/20/19 at 15:01:40:
I am not shure about Alpha Zero, from what I know it never played neither Sicilian or French and nobody knows why.

MartinC wrote on 02/20/19 at 17:50:52:
Well they let AZ pick its favourite openings and it seemed to end up with quite a stylistic preference to playing with fixed centers Smiley

There's a game in Game Changer where they forced it to play Chatard Alekhine (as black) and it tried to be too active too fast and got firmly splattered by Stockfish. A few games where it did very well as white.

I can't remember any Sicillian games from either side.

One greatly amusing Pirc where it got made to play the Na6 Austrian, decided its position was not very good and randomly ditched a pawn. Still drew that one Smiley



I don't think (?) there are any Dragon games but there are a bunch of AlphaZero games from random openings they forced it to play, as well as more games where they let it choose the openings (many more games than are in the Game Changer book) here in this link:

https://deepmind.com/research/open-source/alphazero-resources
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #10 - 12/01/19 at 13:36:57
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XChess1971 wrote on 11/30/19 at 15:25:47:
I checked Shaw's book. Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions I like the variation 14..Qc7 15.Bc5 Rfd8 16.Qh4 h6 17.g4 Nf4 (GM Ward prefers doubling rooks here. But in this position you are going to trade rooks anyway). And here 18.Bxe6 Nxe6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rxd8 Rxd8 21.Qf2 (Doesn't impress me AT ALL!)  21...Nd5 22.Bd2 (Shaw's novelty) is answered with 22...Qb6 (22...a5!?) 23.Re1 Nf4 is simply bad!.
Better options are:
a) 23...Qa6 (the most solid option I believe)
b) 23...Qd4
c)23...f6
d)23...f5
e)23...Kh7 (A complicated idea because you put your king away from the center)
I am respectful. But skeptical of people writing books!!!


Thx for sharing your analysis. Nice to see, that there are still players, who admire the dragon as much as I do. I don´t have Shaws book. But I just compared the lines you gave with SF. 23...Nf4 seems to lead to lead to a small advantage for white at best. Which of your suggestions, do you consider best? 23...Qa6 24.Kb1 does also seem to be slightly better for white for example.

Overall I think black should have good chances in this Qh4-line in a practical game. I prefer 17...Rd7 btw to keep the tension. But I am not a correspondence player, so there might be the difference:)
  
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XChess1971
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #9 - 11/30/19 at 15:25:47
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bragesjo wrote on 02/17/19 at 12:35:20:
If I am to give an theoretical recommedantins, Jones books are the best books for black, I am even mentioned in them in at least 2 lines. Negis book for white is also helpfull for both sides where the books met.

For black vs Bc4 yugoslav I would recommended Topalovs Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system unless white plays h4 before 0-0-0 then I would recommend  h5 and Soltis variation.

For black vs 9 0-0-0 i would recommend d5.
If 10 Kb1 I recommend Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 exf6 system.
If 12 Bd4 lines I would recommend  Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 Na4 Qc7. I might not the most fun line to play but I think the position is balanced, it apperas to be  some hidden dynamic elemetns for black in the postion that compensated the worse pawn structure
If 10 Qe1 line I recommened e5, particaully since the trendy 14 Kb1 is not much to have for white since the position leads to very forced play after a5!! h4 Qc7!.

g4 Yugoslav I would recommend Be6.

For white I would recommend 9 0-0-0 yugoslav meeting d5 with Qe1 and play like Shaws book and thus playng  the old mainline with 14 Ne4 insted of the trendy 14 Kb1 in e5 line.


I checked Shaw's book. Since I have done a deeper analysis of those positions I like the variation 14..Qc7 15.Bc5 Rfd8 16.Qh4 h6 17.g4 Nf4 (GM Ward prefers doubling rooks here. But in this position you are going to trade rooks anyway). And here 18.Bxe6 Nxe6 19.Be3 Nf4 20.Rxd8 Rxd8 21.Qf2 (Doesn't impress me AT ALL!)  21...Nd5 22.Bd2 (Shaw's novelty) is answered with 22...Qb6 (22...a5!?) 23.Re1 Nf4 is simply bad!.
Better options are:
a) 23...Qa6 (the most solid option I believe)
b) 23...Qd4
c)23...f6
d)23...f5
e)23...Kh7 (A complicated idea because you put your king away from the center)
I am respectful. But skeptical of people writing books!!!
  

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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #8 - 02/20/19 at 17:50:52
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Well they let AZ pick its favourite openings and it seemed to end up with quite a stylistic preference to playing with fixed centers Smiley

There's a game in Game Changer where they forced it to play Chatard Alekhine (as black) and it tried to be too active too fast and got firmly splattered by Stockfish. A few games where it did very well as white.

I can't remember any Sicillian games from either side.

One greatly amusing Pirc where it got made to play the Na6 Austrian, decided its position was not very good and randomly ditched a pawn. Still drew that one Smiley
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #7 - 02/20/19 at 15:01:40
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I am not shure about Alpha Zero, from what I know it never played neither Sicilian or French and nobody knows why.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #6 - 02/18/19 at 18:34:03
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bragesjo wrote on 02/17/19 at 12:35:20:
If I am to give an theoretical recommedantins, Jones books are the best books for black, I am even mentioned in them in at least 2 lines. Negis book for white is also helpfull for both sides where the books met.

For black vs Bc4 yugoslav I would recommended Topalovs Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system unless white plays h4 before 0-0-0 then I would recommend  h5 and Soltis variation.

For black vs 9 0-0-0 i would recommend d5.
If 10 Kb1 I recommend Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 exf6 system.
If 12 Bd4 lines I would recommend  Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 Na4 Qc7. I might not the most fun line to play but I think the position is balanced, it apperas to be  some hidden dynamic elemetns for black in the postion that compensated the worse pawn structure
If 10 Qe1 line I recommened e5, particaully since the trendy 14 Kb1 is not much to have for white since the position leads to very forced play after a5!! h4 Qc7!.

g4 Yugoslav I would recommend Be6.

For white I would recommend 9 0-0-0 yugoslav meeting d5 with Qe1 and play like Shaws book and thus playng  the old mainline with 14 Ne4 insted of the trendy 14 Kb1 in e5 line.


Thx bragesjo,

I remember vaguely a big thread about 9.000 d5 with 14.Ne4 and at some point ....Qb7, where Black actually never equalised, so it seems some refinements in some lines, but nothing really new. Did alphazero play the dragon?
  

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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #5 - 02/17/19 at 12:41:21
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/14/19 at 23:17:55:
Maybe I am outdated, but a whilst ago I remember that people played the Dragon with the intention of getting an attacking game with moderate amount of theory.

Lately lines are going past move 30 and it looks like some play it to draw (¡) since there are many forced draws.

Of course I refer to OTB play, but how do you address this as Black playing with such long times in the correspondence games ¿


Playing the Dragon depend on over the board much depends of what opponets one mets. Many lines leads to forced draws or eqaul endgames but at club level many white players can easy go wrong very early or mix up move orders. I have hower not played Dragon in over the board games for several years since I am playing either Taimanov or French depending on opponent. However playing any sicilian at club level also means the almost all games are going to be anti sicilians.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #4 - 02/17/19 at 12:35:20
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If I am to give an theoretical recommedantins, Jones books are the best books for black, I am even mentioned in them in at least 2 lines. Negis book for white is also helpfull for both sides where the books met.

For black vs Bc4 yugoslav I would recommended Topalovs Rc8 Nxd4 b5 system unless white plays h4 before 0-0-0 then I would recommend  h5 and Soltis variation.

For black vs 9 0-0-0 i would recommend d5.
If 10 Kb1 I recommend Nxd4 e5 Nf5 exf6 exf6 system.
If 12 Bd4 lines I would recommend  Bxd4 Qxd4 Qb6 Na4 Qc7. I might not the most fun line to play but I think the position is balanced, it apperas to be  some hidden dynamic elemetns for black in the postion that compensated the worse pawn structure
If 10 Qe1 line I recommened e5, particaully since the trendy 14 Kb1 is not much to have for white since the position leads to very forced play after a5!! h4 Qc7!.

g4 Yugoslav I would recommend Be6.

For white I would recommend 9 0-0-0 yugoslav meeting d5 with Qe1 and play like Shaws book and thus playng  the old mainline with 14 Ne4 insted of the trendy 14 Kb1 in e5 line.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #3 - 02/14/19 at 23:17:55
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Maybe I am outdated, but a whilst ago I remember that people played the Dragon with the intention of getting an attacking game with moderate amount of theory.

Lately lines are going past move 30 and it looks like some play it to draw (¡) since there are many forced draws.

Of course I refer to OTB play, but how do you address this as Black playing with such long times in the correspondence games ¿
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #2 - 02/14/19 at 19:52:20
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Hi.

I too find this interesting and would like to thank mr. Bragesjo for  taking the time to note his experiences.

For what it is worth. In terms of Sicilians the Dragon is the only one that I've ever truly felt like playing. Maybe I will give it a go at some point.

Have a nice day.
  
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Re: Report from a Dragon thematical corr event at ICCF
Reply #1 - 02/14/19 at 14:37:03
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Very interesting, @bragesjo! Smiley

As you have been playing the dragon for decades, could you sum up your repertoire in the mainlines, please?

I played the dragon about 20 years ago, switched to Taimanov, due to less theory and many problems, at that time, in the dragon, like 9.000 d5 line. Today, theory in Taimanov developed very fast and there are some probs in the 7.Qf3 line, so maybe you can persuade me, to return to the dragon:)
Do you have Jones' dragon book by quality chess? Recommendable?
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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