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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto (Read 690 times)
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #10 - 02/22/19 at 00:49:47
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/22/19 at 00:09:32:
... I would opt for developing setup with fianchetto and put knight on e7. In the Italian I would probably do the same, maybe try for a quick ...d5 like in the Cozio.
I hate to play ...Ne7 with the wP still on e4. It has to be connected with a concrete plan, otherwise white can get a pleasant edge. It does work in some lines, but not all. I play these lines with white as well, via the Three Knights Game, and when black plays ...Ne7 followed by routine moves I can put the hurt on.

Once white has committed to e4-e5, ...Ne7 is fine.
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #9 - 02/22/19 at 00:30:40
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1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Bxc6 Bxc6 6.Nc3 "6...f6 7. Be3 g6= according to Keres and Geller" -- I guess is what you mean. Thus my move-order idea 6.Qd3 , and if 6...f6 7.c4! g6 8.Nc3 when I don't think black can claim equality just yet. Maybe later. White can O-O-O!, tuck the king away on b1 and still play for c4-c5 (probably after d4-d5 but not necessarily). Or white can O-O!?, leave the B/c1, and play d4-d5 followed directly by b2-b4. Black will no doubt play ...a5, but then b4xa5, a2-a4, Nf3-d2-b3 is a known pattern. But this is exactly the kind of stodgy KID-style "playable" stuff that works against certain 1.e4-players, i.e. the ones who try to mate black on the kingside no matter the pawn structure.
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #8 - 02/22/19 at 00:09:32
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/21/19 at 19:44:08:
Italian 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d6!? (or 2...d6 3.Bc4 Nc6!?) 4.d4 exd4 5.c3 is sharpest. 5...dxc3 is known from the Goering Gambit. Heiling (1987) Larsen Variante analyzed 5...Ne5!? as in Glek - Dreev, USSR jr ch 1985. And I think Heiling's comments were based on Dreev's from somewhere, probably an Informator. I only faced this one time, against Esserman. I chose 5...d3, the way Keres handled these positions, and got a very playable game, but lost to a player with more talent.
Glek - Dreev: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1038882


I recognise any type of gambitting the d-pawn in these ...g6 structures is often critical. In the 3. Ab5 g6 Ruy López like in Collins' DWD, he recommends taking the pawn.

In a practical game I would not do this, because me find it hard to easily defend with the critical moves all the time. Objectively it should be equal, but playing non-intuitive moves like ...Dd7 and contorting the position to hang on to extra pawn is not pleasant for me.

I would opt for developing setup with fianchetto and put knight on e7. In the Italian I would probably do the same, maybe try for a quick ...d5 like in the Cozio.

an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/21/19 at 19:44:08:
Scotch 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 I have played only four times (4...Nf6 is the move). For some reason all four games went 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Qd4?! Qf6, and I think black is doing great. This is the upside to the ...g6 systems, many white players are instantly out of book, and thinking for themselves leads to mistakes.


4...Ac5 is popular amongst elite too. But you are true that most players who play the Scotch probably overlook 4...g6 completely since they expect no one would play it. Of course both 4...Ac5 and 4...Cf6 objectively fines, but going down their theory for long lines is just another pain.

I remember in some book for Pirc for Black where it was recommended 6...Cc6 against the Classical, some position were Black taking on d4 followed by setup of ...Ad7/...Te8 and piling on e4. As Pirc player I prefer 6...c6 like in Marin, but to transpose to the Pirc via Scotch I would not mind playing 6...Cc6 Pirc when game started as 1...e5. And of course, the chance that even high rated White players lose their minds completely when seeing 4...g6 Cheesy
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #7 - 02/21/19 at 20:05:05
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 02/21/19 at 19:44:08:
Spanish 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 I haven't tried 3...g6, but I have looked at it. I mostly play other variations, but sometimes I have played 3...d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6. Compared with other open game ...g6 variations, this Spanish version has pluses and minuses for both colors. I am sure white can keep an edge there, but I have always wondered why white never plays 5.Bxc6 Bxc6 6.Nc3 (or 6.Qd3 with the same idea) ... ? If black plays 6...Nf6 then 7.Qd3 (or 7.Nc3 if it was 6.Qd3) is a good line for white. Maybe 6...f6, but this is the kind of move Steinitz used to be criticized for.


An old bit of theory is 6...f6 7. Be3 g6= according to Keres and Geller.
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #6 - 02/21/19 at 19:44:08
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/21/19 at 02:19:42:
RdC wrote on 02/14/19 at 08:12:24:
You can also play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 d6 where 4. d4 is again critical and if 4. .. exd4 similar positions can be reached.


This looks like transposes to a Philidor Антошин after Black goes ...g6. Or a Pirc where Black plays an early ...e5.

RdC wrote on 02/14/19 at 08:12:24:
Perhaps if you like the g6, Bg7 idea  in the Spanish against a slow build up by White with d3 and c3, then much the same is plausible in slow Italians.


I have been seeing the fianchetto in the Ruy López more lately. Last time was just today in Аэрофлот. I think that it was a game where Wang Hao was playing (¿). However in that case the game had ...a6 first before ...g6.

But the one who uses it at least semi-regularly to me is Məmmədjarow. I honestly did not expect him to have played 3...g6 in the Italian against a 2600+ GM.

I remember also I was in a tournament and I saw Alejandro Ramírez play a Berlin, but after his opponent played 4. d3 the game started looking like a Ruy López Смислов. He must have played ...d6 and ...g6 fairly early.

Vienna maybe 1. e4 e5 2. Cc3 g6 since d4 is not good right now. Even after 3. f4 just play ...d6 and go back to setup.

2. Ac4 g6 looks okay I think and would transpose to one of the other aforementions.

But with a viable ...g6 against the Ruy López, Italian and Scotch, that is most of the worry done  Cheesy


I have played some of these ...g6 systems as black. The only thing "wrong" with them is that the main lines give white more problems. For example after 3.Bc4 I mostly play 3...Bc5 and have a decent record, performing maybe +50 above my Elo -- pretty good for the black pieces. In the handful of games where I played 3...Nf6 I scored 100%(!). With 3...d6 I have some draws against strong opponents, one loss against a strong opponent (see next paragraph), and a bunch of wins against players 300+ Elo weaker. So roughly the same as 3...Bc5, but the 3...d6 games are a little stodgy. Against certain opponents, a little stodge is just what is needed.

Italian 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 d6!? (or 2...d6 3.Bc4 Nc6!?) 4.d4 exd4 5.c3 is sharpest. 5...dxc3 is known from the Goering Gambit. Heiling (1987) Larsen Variante analyzed 5...Ne5!? as in Glek - Dreev, USSR jr ch 1985. And I think Heiling's comments were based on Dreev's from somewhere, probably an Informator. I only faced this one time, against Esserman. I chose 5...d3, the way Keres handled these positions, and got a very playable game, but lost to a player with more talent.
Glek - Dreev: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1038882

Spanish 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 I haven't tried 3...g6, but I have looked at it. I mostly play other variations, but sometimes I have played 3...d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 exd4 6.Nxd4 g6. Compared with other open game ...g6 variations, this Spanish version has pluses and minuses for both colors. I am sure white can keep an edge there, but I have always wondered why white never plays 5.Bxc6 Bxc6 6.Nc3 (or 6.Qd3 with the same idea) ... ? If black plays 6...Nf6 then 7.Qd3 (or 7.Nc3 if it was 6.Qd3) is a good line for white. Maybe 6...f6, but this is the kind of move Steinitz used to be criticized for.

Scotch 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 I have played only four times (4...Nf6 is the move). For some reason all four games went 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Qd4?! Qf6, and I think black is doing great. This is the upside to the ...g6 systems, many white players are instantly out of book, and thinking for themselves leads to mistakes.

Vienna 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 g6 at this moment looks bad to me ... 3.d4! exd4 4.Qxd4 f6 or 4...Nf6 5.Bg5 is a great Center Game, and 4...Qf6 is not like the Scotch: 5.Qxf6! Nxf6 6.e5 Ng8 7.Nd5 Kd8 8.Bg5+. Maybe black can get away with 3.d4 d6 4.exd5 exd5 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8, but it seems risky. For example 6.Bc4 Ke8 7.f4!? and I would not want to be black. Ovetchkin/Soloviov (2015) The Modern Vienna Game gives a different approach. 1.e4 e5 2.Nc3 g6 3.Bc4 Bg7 4.f4 d6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.d3 Nf6 7.O-O O-O 8.fxe5 dxe5 9.Bg5 h6 10.Bh4 Na5 11.Bb3 Nxb3 12.axb3 c6 13.Qd2 Be6 14.Qf2 +=. I don't have the book in front of me, that line is from memory. But I remember the double-threat Rxa7 and Nxe5, I hope I have the other details correct.
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #5 - 02/21/19 at 03:06:47
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/21/19 at 02:19:42:
Vienna maybe 1. e4 e5 2. Cc3 g6 since d4 is not good right now.

Really??

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/21/19 at 02:19:42:
2. Ac4 g6 looks okay I think and would transpose to one of the other aforementions.

Not sure Black would be happy with 3. d4 here either.


Of course among the possible ...g6's in the Spanish is 3...a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 g6.  (In a recent Yearbook, Timman wrote something like "it is certainly more interesting than the Berlin.")  Some months ago I was struck by a game Sparenberg (2224)-Warmerdam (IM 2417), which became even more KID-like than this line is sometimes known to do in that the light-squared bishops never came off.  Not Mr. Sparenberg's best day.

https://www.chessbomb.com/arena/2018-hoogeveen-open/02-Sparenberg_Erik-Warmerdam...
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #4 - 02/21/19 at 02:19:42
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RdC wrote on 02/14/19 at 08:12:24:
You can also play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 d6 where 4. d4 is again critical and if 4. .. exd4 similar positions can be reached.


This looks like transposes to a Philidor Антошин after Black goes ...g6. Or a Pirc where Black plays an early ...e5.

RdC wrote on 02/14/19 at 08:12:24:
Perhaps if you like the g6, Bg7 idea  in the Spanish against a slow build up by White with d3 and c3, then much the same is plausible in slow Italians.


I have been seeing the fianchetto in the Ruy López more lately. Last time was just today in Аэрофлот. I think that it was a game where Wang Hao was playing (¿). However in that case the game had ...a6 first before ...g6.

But the one who uses it at least semi-regularly to me is Məmmədjarow. I honestly did not expect him to have played 3...g6 in the Italian against a 2600+ GM.

I remember also I was in a tournament and I saw Alejandro Ramírez play a Berlin, but after his opponent played 4. d3 the game started looking like a Ruy López Смислов. He must have played ...d6 and ...g6 fairly early.

Vienna maybe 1. e4 e5 2. Cc3 g6 since d4 is not good right now. Even after 3. f4 just play ...d6 and go back to setup.

2. Ac4 g6 looks okay I think and would transpose to one of the other aforementions.

But with a viable ...g6 against the Ruy López, Italian and Scotch, that is most of the worry done  Cheesy
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #3 - 02/14/19 at 08:15:06
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You might want to take a look at the Kenilworthian site.

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/
  

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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #2 - 02/14/19 at 08:12:24
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 02/14/19 at 04:43:54:
So he managed to draw with 3...g6 against the Italian. Database indicates that 4. d4 is critical, but to me this looks like a transportation to a weird Scotch.



You can also play 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 d6 where 4. d4 is again critical and if 4. .. exd4 similar positions can be reached.

Perhaps if you like the g6, Bg7 idea  in the Spanish against a slow build up by White with d3 and c3, then much the same is plausible in slow Italians.
  
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Re: 1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
Reply #1 - 02/14/19 at 05:31:35
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I would think "+= with best play" has been the traditional view of 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 ed 4. Nxd4 g6 (which can transpose to a Modern or a Classical KID) and 3. Nc3 g6 4. d4.

Incidentally here is an old game which comes to my mind (I believe the annotations are essentially the same as in Keene's book Becoming a Grandmaster from 1977).
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1067988

edit:  I thought that Keene game was cited by ECO under one of the 2...Nc6 move orders, but I was wrong.  Here is a comparable one which was cited there (Keres played 3...g6 a number of times).
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1022811
« Last Edit: 02/14/19 at 16:13:23 by kylemeister »  
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1...e5 repertoire based on ...g6 fianchetto
02/14/19 at 04:43:54
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I have Collins' Spanish Fianchetto DVD and saw in some recent NICYB that 3...g6 against the Spanish plays at the high level, especially by Məmmədjarow.

I was thinking of extending the idea into a full repertoire based on Ruy López/Open games based on the fianchetto with ...g6. At first I thought it was ridiculous to even think of doing it, but I went to look in Big Database 2019.

My got feeling was that it should be += to play 1. e4 e5 2. Cf3 Cc6 3. Ac4 g6, or simply complete rubbish in worse case scenario. I looked in the database and even if it is not popular, a few 2400s and 2500s use it. Then I found that even Məmmədjarow himself had used it against Ganguly  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy



So he managed to draw with 3...g6 against the Italian. Database indicates that 4. d4 is critical, but to me this looks like a transportation to a weird Scotch.

I looked at my copy of Dembo's book on Scotch, and 1. e4 e5. 2. Cf3 Cc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Cxd4 g6 is the last line given in that book. I looked through some of the lines and the general impression that I got was that it was about += with White best play. Honestly the positions do not look so bad for Black. They remind me of Philidor Défence, Variante Antoshin, where Black fianchettos.

Other than Italian and Scotch, Four Knights with 3. Cc3 g6 and if White wants to take advantage of this quickly, 4. d4 should be the only serious try and then it transposes to the Scotch with ...g6.

Maybe a good choice for 1...e5 to avoid getting swamped in theory ¿ At the very least as a surprise repertoire, if not regular repertoire.

If I ever get chance to scribe a book on such repertoire....  Cheesy
  
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