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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez (Read 4184 times)
tony37
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #21 - 03/27/19 at 14:53:00
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Kam wrote on 03/27/19 at 13:28:19:
A possible continuation of the 12.dxe5!? variation is as follows:

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 0–0 9.b3 d5 10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.dxe5 12...d4 13.Nb5 Bxe5 14.Bd2!? axb6 15.Bc4!? [15.a4 d3 16.Nf3 Bg7 17.g3 Re8+ 18.Be3 Nb4 19.Bg2 Nc2+ 20.Rxc2 dxc2 21.Qxc2 Bf5 22.Qd2 Bd3 23.Bf1 Be4 24.Qxd8 Raxd8 25.Bg2 Bd3 26.h3 (26.h4 h5= 27.Rh2) 26...Bh6= B+N v R, White has problems developing the king rook and the white king is stuck in the centre. Black has doubled queenside pawns.; 15.Nf3 Rxa2 (15...Rxa2 16.Nf3 Bg4 17.h3 Bxf3 18.Qxf3 [18.gxf3 Qf6 19.0–0 Rd8 20.Kg2 Bf4 21.Bxf4 Qxf4 22.Qe1 Ra5 23.Qe2 Qg5+ 24.Kh1 Qf5 25.Rfd1 Qxh3+ 26.Kg1 Qf5 27.b4 Nxb4 28.Nxd4 Qg5+ 29.Kf1 Re5³] 18...Bb8!? 19.Bf4!? 19...Re8+ 20.Kf1 Bxf4 21.Qxf4 Ne5 22.Rd1 Nxc4 23.bxc4 d3 24.Nd6 Qc7 25.Kg1 Ra3 26.Qg3 Rd8 27.Ne4!? Qxc4 28.Qh4 Slight advantage white.

I assume your main line goes 12.dxe5 d4 13.Nb5 Bxe5 14.Bd2!? axb6 15.Bc4!? Rxa2 16.Nf3 Bg4 17.h3 Bxf3 18.Qxf3 Bb8!? 19.Bf4!? Re8+ 20.Kf1 Bxf4 21.Qxf4 Ne5 22.Rd1 Nxc4 23.bxc4 d3 24.Nd6 Qc7 25.Kg1 Ra3 26.Qg3 Rd8 27.Ne4!? Qxc4 28.Qh4

a clear improvement seems 24.g4 or 24.h4 or 24.g3 (all of these can also be played at move 22)
it's true white needs some time to develop his rook on h1 and black has some counterplay with the d-pawn, so I can't tell what would happen in an OTB game, but in theory white is winning
  
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Kam
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #20 - 03/27/19 at 13:28:19
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A possible continuation of the 12.dxe5!? variation is as follows:

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.c4 Nb6 5.exd6 cxd6 6.Nc3 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Rc1 0–0 9.b3 d5 10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.dxe5 12...d4 13.Nb5 Bxe5 14.Bd2!? axb6 15.Bc4!? [15.a4 d3 16.Nf3 Bg7 17.g3 Re8+ 18.Be3 Nb4 19.Bg2 Nc2+ 20.Rxc2 dxc2 21.Qxc2 Bf5 22.Qd2 Bd3 23.Bf1 Be4 24.Qxd8 Raxd8 25.Bg2 Bd3 26.h3 (26.h4 h5= 27.Rh2) 26...Bh6= B+N v R, White has problems developing the king rook and the white king is stuck in the centre. Black has doubled queenside pawns.; 15.Nf3 Rxa2 (15...Rxa2 16.Nf3 Bg4 17.h3 Bxf3 18.Qxf3 [18.gxf3 Qf6 19.0–0 Rd8 20.Kg2 Bf4 21.Bxf4 Qxf4 22.Qe1 Ra5 23.Qe2 Qg5+ 24.Kh1 Qf5 25.Rfd1 Qxh3+ 26.Kg1 Qf5 27.b4 Nxb4 28.Nxd4 Qg5+ 29.Kf1 Re5³] 18...Bb8!? 19.Bf4!? 19...Re8+ 20.Kf1 Bxf4 21.Qxf4 Ne5 22.Rd1 Nxc4 23.bxc4 d3 24.Nd6 Qc7 25.Kg1 Ra3 26.Qg3 Rd8 27.Ne4!? Qxc4 28.Qh4 Slight advantage white.


White has a knight against black’s three weak but passed queen side pawns.
White does have a positional advantage, but the position may be defendable for black. Hopefully improvements for black can be found.
My analysis was done with Fritz 12, and 14.Bd2!? was not easily detected.

Black key objectives are as follows.
Black should try to avoid queen exchanges for as long as possible since the black queen side pawns are very weak.
The passed front b-pawn should be advanced to cause queen promotion threats.
The white kingside pawns should be enticed to advance and thus cause weaknesses.
The black d-pawn perhaps should stay on d3 for as long as possible.
The black rooks should remain active.
  
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Slowfox
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #19 - 03/24/19 at 18:48:27
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gewgaw wrote on 03/21/19 at 19:28:02:
[quote author=456F6351426B6B0E0 link=1551127870/16#16 date=1553083603]
Slowfox, is this line the refution of your sacrifice? Do you have any antidote?


Originally, I had thrusted 13 ...Bxe5 without a closer look at 14 Ld2. Now, it seems problematic.
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #18 - 03/21/19 at 19:28:02
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Kam wrote on 03/20/19 at 12:06:43:
A more combatant continuation to  12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5 dxe3 (gewgaw/Hammer  #15   19-3-2019)
would be 13….. Bxe5!? Black seems to have sufficient resources and possible continuations are


Thx for the idea; I'm curious, which engine do you use, which doesn't give 14.Bd2 as "refutation?

Slowfox, is this line the refution of your sacrifice? Do you have any antidote?
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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tony37
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #17 - 03/21/19 at 14:31:14
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Kam wrote on 03/20/19 at 12:06:43:
Discussion of the Continuation  12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5

1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.c4 Nb6  5.exd6 cxd6  6.Nc3 g6  7.Be3 Bg7  8.Rc1 O-O  9.b3  d5  10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5

A more combatant continuation to  12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5 dxe3 (gewgaw/Hammer  #15   19-3-2019)
would be 13….. Bxe5!? Black seems to have sufficient resources and possible continuations are

a) 14.Nf3 Bg4  15.Bg5 Bxf3 16.Bxd8 Bxd1  17.Bc7 axb6  18.Bxe5 Nxe5  19.Kxd1 Rxa2  20.f3 Rb2  21.Na3 Rxb3  22.Nc4 Nxc4  23.Bxc4 Rb2  24.Bd5 Ra8 =
b) 14.Nc7 Qe7  15.Bg5 Qxg5  16.Nf3 Qe7  17.Nxa8 Bf5  18.Qe2
d3  19.Qe3 Qb4+  20.Qd2 Qd6  21.Nxe5 Qxe5+  22.Qe3 Qa5+
23.Qd2 Re8+  24.Kd1 Qd5  25.Bxd3 Qxg2  26.Re1 Qf3+ 27.Be2 Rxe2  28.Rxe2 Qh1+ =
c) 14.Rxc6 bxc6  15.Nxd4 axb6  16.Ngf3 Bxd4  17.Nxd4 c5  18.Nb5 Qxd1+ 19.Kxd1 Rxa2 =

the problem with 13...Bxe5 is 14.Bd2
because the bishop on e5 is in the way, Black's counterplay against the White king is a fraction too late, for example 14...Re8 15.Bc4 Qxb6 16.Kf1
  
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Kam
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #16 - 03/20/19 at 12:06:43
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Discussion of the Continuation  12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5

1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.c4 Nb6  5.exd6 cxd6  6.Nc3 g6  7.Be3 Bg7  8.Rc1 O-O  9.b3  d5  10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5

A more combatant continuation to  12.dxe5 d4  13.Nb5 dxe3 (gewgaw/Hammer  #15   19-3-2019)
would be 13….. Bxe5!? Black seems to have sufficient resources and possible continuations are

a) 14.Nf3 Bg4  15.Bg5 Bxf3 16.Bxd8 Bxd1  17.Bc7 axb6  18.Bxe5 Nxe5  19.Kxd1 Rxa2  20.f3 Rb2  21.Na3 Rxb3  22.Nc4 Nxc4  23.Bxc4 Rb2  24.Bd5 Ra8 =
b) 14.Nc7 Qe7  15.Bg5 Qxg5  16.Nf3 Qe7  17.Nxa8 Bf5  18.Qe2
d3  19.Qe3 Qb4+  20.Qd2 Qd6  21.Nxe5 Qxe5+  22.Qe3 Qa5+
23.Qd2 Re8+  24.Kd1 Qd5  25.Bxd3 Qxg2  26.Re1 Qf3+ 27.Be2 Rxe2  28.Rxe2 Qh1+ =
c) 14.Rxc6 bxc6  15.Nxd4 axb6  16.Ngf3 Bxd4  17.Nxd4 c5  18.Nb5 Qxd1+ 19.Kxd1 Rxa2 =
  
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gewgaw
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #15 - 03/18/19 at 18:44:44
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I asked GM Hammer on twitch, he checked this sacrifice for several hours and came up with:
12 dxe5!? d4 13 Nb5 dxe3 14 Qxd8 Rxd8 15 Nc7 Be6 16 Rxc6 bxc6 17 Nxa8 Rxa8 18 b7 Rb8 19 Ba6 exf2+ 20 Kxf2 Bxe5 21 Nf3 Bd6

A line, which was already mentioned below.
He thinks, White is at least slightly better, Black will lose the bishoppair and has to suffer.
  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #14 - 03/11/19 at 06:55:30
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Voat = Voronezh oddities analysis tester

Maybe Wink
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #13 - 03/10/19 at 19:37:01
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Congratulation Slowfox for that new sacrifice!

One ctitical line and very sharp where Black seems to have enough ressource at first sight. I noted also that a certain Voat played on lichess as black and rated 2450-2500 beat a 2300 3-1 the 28 of february with that sac line, probably not a coincidence...

About the sharp line: 12.Nb5!? exd4 13.Nxd4 Re8 14.Be2 Nxd4 15.Bxd4 Bxd4 16.Qxd4 Qg5 17.Kd1 Re4 18.Qc3 Qxg2 19.Qg3 Qxh1 20.Rxc8 Rxc8 21.Bf3 Rd4 22.Ke2 Rd8 23.Kf1 Rd1 24.Bxd1 Qe4 25.Bf3 etc.

Or 13..Bxd4 14.Bxd4 Re8 15.Ne2 axb6 etc (15.Be2 Nxd4 16.Qxd4 transpose in the line given).
  
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #12 - 03/08/19 at 08:22:05
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Instead of going into analyses of this variation, I will comment on Kam’s question on how I found it. It was during preparations the day before I was to play WIM Inna Agrest in Politiken Cup 2014. I was looking at 10...e5 which the slightly unhappy computer would invariably follow up by Nc6, so why not switch? We played this line and my opponent won because she is a stronger player than me. My reason for publishing the line here is that I want to see if it survives deeper analyses.
« Last Edit: 03/08/19 at 11:42:59 by Slowfox »  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #11 - 03/05/19 at 16:41:27
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What a cool idea, I'll take a look at it when I can.  Thanks for sharing!
  
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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black against the Voronez
Reply #10 - 03/05/19 at 11:38:52
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Good stuff, ...

1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.c4 Nb6  5.exd6 cxd6  6.Nc3 g6  7.Be3 Bg7  8.Rc1 O-O  9.b3  d5  10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.Nge2 exd4  13.Nxd4 Bxd4  14.Bxd4 Qh4 

What's your reply against 15. Nxd5!?

This piece sac feels like alphazero's mind.
  

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Re: Surprising piece sac for Black vs the Voronezh
Reply #9 - 03/05/19 at 07:42:38
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Kam wrote on 03/03/19 at 02:07:38:
A Possible New Exciting Line Against the Alekhine’s Defence, Exchange Variation, Voronezh Variation.

     1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.c4 Nb6  5.exd6 cxd6  6.Nc3 g6  7.Be3 Bg7  8.Rc1 O-O  9.b3 d4  10.c5 Nc6  11.cxb6 e5 12

Thanks, guys for positive comments and contributions. You quickly catch up with my analyses although I am four years ahead. My main Line is

1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5  3.d4 d6  4.c4 Nb6  5.exd6 cxd6  6.Nc3 g6  7.Be3 Bg7  8.Rc1 O-O  9.b3  d5  10.c5 Nc6 11.cxb6 e5 12.Nge2 exd4  13.Nxd4 Bxd4  14.Bxd4 Qh4  15.Bc5 Re8+ 16.Be2 axb6 17.g3 Qh3 18.Bxb6 Bg4 19.Be3 Bxe2 20.Nxe2 d4 21.Nxd4 Nxd4 22.Qxd4 Qg2 23.Rf1 Rxa2 24.Qc3 h6!

after which nothing is clear, and there are still several critical other Lines.

« Last Edit: 03/05/19 at 09:19:04 by GMTonyKosten » 
Reason: Change thread title 
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TonyRo
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Re: Status of Exchange with both 5...exd6 and 5...cxd6
Reply #8 - 03/04/19 at 16:48:14
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I looked at this line and a similar idea through an inferior move order (that I had to discard) a long time ago when engines like Junior were still usable. I'll see if I can dig up my notes. I'm glad someone appears to have made it work, or at least believes in it now!  Shocked Cheesy
  
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Slowfox
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Re: Status of Exchange with both 5...exd6 and 5...cxd6
Reply #7 - 03/04/19 at 16:29:18
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 03/04/19 at 10:12:36:
[quote author=78525E6C7F5656330 link=1527709485/4#4 date=1551578858]
Actually I can splice off the last few posts into a new thread if Slowfox is happy with that?

Ok with me!
  
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