Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Modernised French Defence by Miedema (Read 10044 times)
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #47 - 07/01/19 at 04:50:42
Post Tools
Which variation exactly in 12. h4 is he recommends ¿ And about computer lines, which engine is he using ¿ This very important in these Winawer lines.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
pirc kid
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 7
Joined: 02/28/16
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #46 - 06/30/19 at 20:58:38
Post Tools
Anyone compared Miedema's Winawer lines with the German chess24 Videos of IM Baskin (Nc3 repertoire for White series)?

Though Baskin is in my opinion the most terrible presenter in chess video history as he rushes through his computer lines, contentwise it is really scary for Black as his computer shows that 12.h4 makes the Qc7 variation almost unplayable for Black.

I would be interested if Miedema found something compared to Baskin.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #45 - 06/08/19 at 21:11:35
Post Tools
I continued analysing this line, interesting setups for Black.

I wonder if can make request for John Watson in Chesspublishing's French section monthly update to see what he thinks of 9. Ag5 ¿
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #44 - 05/28/19 at 21:31:56
Post Tools
In databank, I see that Miedema actually has played this in game Dijkhuis-Miedema, Amsterdam 2013

11...c4 12. Axg6 fxg6 13. a4 Dc7 14. Ac1 Df7 15. Aa3 Td8.

instead of trading queens.

He messed up and lost in 28 moves. Yet I think that this looks interesting. Black keep queens on board trying for a middlegame instead of trading on f5.

Perhaps his loss soured his taste for Black in 9. Ag5 ¿ I think that his position at move 15 looks interesting though.

I shall analyse this some more.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #43 - 05/28/19 at 04:56:04
Post Tools
I tried some White attempt after putting rooks on a1/b1 and Black defends by switching his rook from f7 to b7. With no pawn break but try infiltrate with pieces through Black's kingside, computer gave extremely weird plan with Cg5 trying to make weakness by forcing a ...h6. Then after ...h6, Ch7 Cf7, going after g7 pawn with Af8. But then Black plays the ridiculous looking ...Ch8 and Stockfish 10 gives me "=" at 0,00  Cheesy

If White retreats Ch3, Cf7 and again around =. With that Ad6, White cannot retreat to a3 since he hangs a4 pawn. Best case scenario he sacs pawn by allowing Black take d6 and lose his d6 pawn hoping for dark square compensation. But even here compensation only good for equality.

On p. 288 of Miedema's book in chapter of one of the main lines in Poisoned Prawn, analysis past move 40 gives position where White plays R+B against Black's R+P. If White can play perfectly and memorise all of this he could try to torture Black in this endgame, despite it being objectively drawn.

Similarly in this 11...c4 I think that optically White looks more active, perhaps with perfect computer-aided play White can try to do something, but even then looks to me nothing really worse compared to White's best play in PP  Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
YaBB Newbies
*
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 01/25/18
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #42 - 05/28/19 at 04:18:11
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/28/19 at 03:01:24:
Syzygy wrote on 05/28/19 at 02:35:34:
I analyzed this set-up for Black for a while. After something like 13. a4 Qc7 14. Bc1 Qf7 15. Ba3 Qf5 16. Qxf5 Rxf5 17. h4 b6, White's best try seems to be to contain the strong ...a5! idea by doubling rooks on the b-file and placing the bishop on d6. Then, White should slowly expand on the kingside while eyeing a possible Ra1/Bb4/a5 break.


Black has to counter that with having bitchop point always at a4 pawn. Another motive is setup with the strange looking putting rooks on b7 and a6, knight on d8 freeing a4-e8 diagonal pointing towards that a4 pawn again. So if White doubles rooks, Black has it defended b6 pawn anyway, and is threatening to take a4 pawn.

If White does Ad6 too early, Cd8-b7 looks interesting threatening to take then win loose d6-pawn.

By this time White has to protect that a4 pawn again. If moves rook back to a1/a2, Black can take off one of his rooks from that defensive setup. If White goes g4 and tries to deflect, Black can put one of the rook on the f-file, and go back to defend b6 pawn if necessary.

To make anything serious on the kingside, White would weaken his pawns and/or have to sacrifice his a4 pawn.


To me it looks more like some odd "positional draw" with very best precise play. In other words, both White and Black get stuck shuffling round their pieces Cheesy


I came to the same defensive conclusions for Black. Indeed, a hasty Bd6 or pawn break for White only leads to equality. If Black establishes the a5/Rb7/Ra6 set-up and keeps the bishop on the a4 pawn, then White will not be able to break through.

On the other hand, Black can only achieve this defensive set-up if he achieves ...a5 in the first place. Because the knight on c6 is in the way of the bishop, Black is unable to attack the a4 pawn, bring his rooks back to the queenside, and contain the a5 break all at the same time. I think if White is fast enough, he can frustrate Black's plan.

In the end, the evaluation of the endgame is probably a matter of taste.  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #41 - 05/28/19 at 03:01:24
Post Tools
Syzygy wrote on 05/28/19 at 02:35:34:
I analyzed this set-up for Black for a while. After something like 13. a4 Qc7 14. Bc1 Qf7 15. Ba3 Qf5 16. Qxf5 Rxf5 17. h4 b6, White's best try seems to be to contain the strong ...a5! idea by doubling rooks on the b-file and placing the bishop on d6. Then, White should slowly expand on the kingside while eyeing a possible Ra1/Bb4/a5 break.


Black has to counter that with having bitchop point always at a4 pawn. Another motive is setup with the strange looking putting rooks on b7 and a6, knight on d8 freeing a4-e8 diagonal pointing towards that a4 pawn again. So if White doubles rooks, Black has it defended b6 pawn anyway, and is threatening to take a4 pawn.

If White does Ad6 too early, Cd8-b7 looks interesting threatening to take then win loose d6-pawn.

By this time White has to protect that a4 pawn again. If moves rook back to a1/a2, Black can take off one of his rooks from that defensive setup. If White goes g4 and tries to deflect, Black can put one of the rook on the f-file, and go back to defend b6 pawn if necessary.

To make anything serious on the kingside, White would weaken his pawns and/or have to sacrifice his a4 pawn.


To me it looks more like some odd "positional draw" with very best precise play. In other words, both White and Black get stuck shuffling round their pieces Cheesy
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
YaBB Newbies
*
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 01/25/18
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #40 - 05/28/19 at 02:35:34
Post Tools
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/28/19 at 00:58:24:
Syzygy wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:57:08:
If Black wants to deviate in a meaningful way, he should probably do it on the 11th move. I think 11...b5! is his best bet.


Having said that, White attempt to bust through violently with 12. f4 c4 13. f5 looks critical.


I missed 13. f5! After the immediate break, it does appear that White has a strong attack. Therefore, 11...c4 seems like Black's best try for equality.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:53:47:
Syzygy wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:46:56:
11...c4 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. a4 is simply better for White. The bishop is coming to a3.


I have analysed this. Whilst it looks like it can go to a3, White has to deal with weakness of a4 pawn, should Black play ...b6 and ...Ad7.

With a Aa3 by White, that a4 pawn is undefended and bitchop needs to move again to allow rook to protect it. And even then, a1 rook cannot move without fall of his a4 pawn.

To offset this, White has to force a5 in. But Black can block this with seemingly weak ...a5!, fixing that a4 pawn on light square. With Black's ...Ad7 pointing at a4, I cannot see how this is not constant nuisance for White.


I analyzed this set-up for Black for a while. After something like 13. a4 Qc7 14. Bc1 Qf7 15. Ba3 Qf5 16. Qxf5 Rxf5 17. h4 b6, White's best try seems to be to contain the strong ...a5! idea by doubling rooks on the b-file and placing the bishop on d6. Then, White should slowly expand on the kingside while eyeing a possible Ra1/Bb4/a5 break.

That said, Black has a kind of fortress and the endgame is hard to analyze. The computer consistently gives evaluations between +0.5 and +1.0, but of course I do not trust that in this kind of position. My instinct is that Black can hold with this set-up, but it seems like White is playing for two results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #39 - 05/28/19 at 00:58:24
Post Tools
Syzygy wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:57:08:
If Black wants to deviate in a meaningful way, he should probably do it on the 11th move. I think 11...b5! is his best bet.


Actually I had analysed 11...b5 for about two months everyday. It leads to crazy and very weird positions.

The main point is Black keeps his queen on a5, ready to retrat to c7 to go f7->f5 if necessary, which not possible in the main line where he puts it on a4, costing him two tempi.

The pawn on b5 also prevents White queenside expansion. If White forces a4, b-file opens and gives Black counterplay.

Having said that, White attempt to bust through violently with 12. f4 c4 13. f5 looks critical.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 580
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #38 - 05/28/19 at 00:36:53
Post Tools
One thing is for sure. If the engine evaluates as +1.0 to +1.5 and you have analysis where black can keep it in the = to += range, you will do a good business in the French. All the better for you if the engine still evaluates it as +1.0. Contempt like that will surely mess with a human mind.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
YaBB Newbies
*
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 01/25/18
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #37 - 05/27/19 at 20:57:08
Post Tools
If Black wants to deviate in a meaningful way, he should probably do it on the 11th move. I think 11...b5! is his best bet. Now, White has two options:

12. h4 c4 13. Bxg6 fxg6 14. f3! Qb6 15. Kh2 with perhaps a slight advantage.

12. f4 c4 13. Bxg6 fxg6 14. f5 Rxf5 15. h4! leads to a similar type of position as the main line. I think Black's defense is easier, since the queen can drop back, but the position is still dangerous. For instance:

15...Bd7 16. Rxf5 gxf5 17. Qg3 Kf7 18. h5 Rg8 19. Bh4 with the initiative.

15...Qc7 16. Rxf5 exf5 17. Qg3 Qf7 18. Nf4 a5 19. Kf2 Ra7 20. Re1 Be6 21. Rh1 and the attack continues.

I do not know if this much analysis is justified in this thread, but I find that Black is playing with fire in this entire line. I'm curious to know what @Leon_Trotsky has in mind to save Black's chances.

Edit: Ah, I didn't see your latest post before posting this. I'll take another look at 11...c4.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #36 - 05/27/19 at 20:53:47
Post Tools
Syzygy wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:46:56:
10...Qa4 11. h4 +/-


I analysed this a whilst ago. Problem is that 10...Da4 11. f4 c4 12. f5!! +- this idea comes back and haunt Black.

Syzygy wrote on 05/27/19 at 20:46:56:
11...c4 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. a4 is simply better for White. The bishop is coming to a3.


I have analysed this. Whilst it looks like it can go to a3, White has to deal with weakness of a4 pawn, should Black play ...b6 and ...Ad7.

With a Aa3 by White, that a4 pawn is undefended and bitchop needs to move again to allow rook to protect it. And even then, a1 rook cannot move without fall of his a4 pawn.

To offset this, White has to force a5 in. But Black can block this with seemingly weak ...a5!, fixing that a4 pawn on light square. With Black's ...Ad7 pointing at a4, I cannot see how this is not constant nuisance for White.

This a4 idea with Aa3 is also possible in the older main line with 14. Ta2 (instead of 14. f5). This because Black ends up moving his queen back to a5 anyway. But whether White wants to do it, he can do it there too. Personally I do not find it problem for Black.

In database there was some game by Miedema in 11...c4, if I remembered well. He did not play setup exactly as I would have though. Other players like Tatew Abrahamjan played 11...c4 too, but not the way I would recommend.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Syzygy
YaBB Newbies
*
Online


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 24
Joined: 01/25/18
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #35 - 05/27/19 at 20:46:56
Post Tools
I don't think it's as simple as avoiding the main line. Black gets brutalized in many of the side variations:

9...Qc7 10. Nf3 Ng6 11. h4 cxd4 12. cxd4 h5 13. Qxh5 Nxd4 14. Kf1! +/-

9...Qe8 10. Nf3 Ng6 11. h4 f5 12. Qg3 f4 13. Qh3! with a strong attack.

9...Qa5 10. Ne2 and now:

10...b6 11. h4 +/-
10...Qa4 11. h4 +/-
10...cxd4 11. f4 +/-
10...Qc7 11. h4 Kh8 12. Rh3 cxd4 13. cxd4 Nf5 14. O-O-O! +/-
10...Bd7 11. O-O +/- Black is simply too slow.
10...Re8 11. Bh6 Ng6 12. h4 is winning.

10...Ng6 11. O-O and now:

11...c4 12. Bxg6 fxg6 13. a4 is simply better for White. The bishop is coming to a3.

11...Qa4 12. f4 c4 13. Bxg6 fxg6 14. f5! is the infamous main line. Black can deviate from the immediate 12...c4 but White will force through the push in any case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Leon_Trotsky
Senior Member
****
Offline


Кто был никем — тот станет
всем!

Posts: 450
Location: Barcelona, CAT
Joined: 08/11/17
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #34 - 05/27/19 at 19:31:00
Post Tools
derdudea wrote on 05/27/19 at 13:13:24:
As far as 7...0-0 8.Bd3 Nc6 is concerned, Black lost every (!!!) game in my database in the main variation 12.f4 and 14.f5!. Twelve games from 2015 to 2018.


I know about this 9. Ag5 variation. 14. f5 is a killer move in the main line. Black simply has to avoid this main line, and he is fine.

derdudea wrote on 05/27/19 at 13:13:24:
Miedima played the black side in a game where White thankfully played 12. f4 and 14. Ra2, so he had every reason to analyse the consequences of 14.f5!


I have seen some of his games in 9. Ag5. I am not sure what he thinks of deviating from the line with 14. f5 now.

In any case, I did my own analysis, and seems Black is fine when he avoids any line where White forces through f5.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
derdudea
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 173
Location: Germany
Joined: 10/03/08
Gender: Male
Re: Modernised French Defence by Miedema
Reply #33 - 05/27/19 at 13:13:24
Post Tools
As far as 7...0-0 8.Bd3 Nc6 is concerned, Black lost every (!!!) game in my database in the main variation 12.f4 and 14.f5!. Twelve games from 2015 to 2018.

Miedima played the black side in a game where White thankfully played 12. f4 and 14. Ra2, so he had every reason to analyse the consequences of 14.f5!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 4
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo