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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 (Read 2769 times)
RdC
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #28 - 05/14/19 at 23:42:59
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kylemeister wrote on 05/14/19 at 15:34:15:
[quote author=7B7E787F74747F6E2C2B1A0 link=1556976158/18#18 date=1557843291]I have played 3...d6 a lot, both via the Italian and more often via the Philidor (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Nc6), with rather good results. The only way to punish it is by playing sharply 4.d4! exd4 5.c3!. Just about nobody does that, though.


I ran into this recently. My response was 5. .. dxc3 6. 0-0 and now 6. .. Be7 is an error (6. .. Nf6 should be played). After 7. Qb3 Na5 8. Bxf7 Kf8 9. Qxc3 Kxf7 10 Qxa5 White is quite a lot better.



  
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mn
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #27 - 05/14/19 at 21:33:26
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/14/19 at 19:27:33:
grandpatzer wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:43:09:
I thought that 4.c3 was the only "refutation" of 3...d6.
Not even close, 4.c3 g6 5.d4 Qe7 and white is a bit better (see next comment), but black's position is very playable.

mn wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:51:50:
Isn't 4 d4 exd4 5 Nxd4 a bit better for White?
Agreed, and there are other ways for white to be a bit better. But shouldn't white strive for more against an "inferior" move like 3...d6 ...? Now 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 g6 gives black a very reasonable Philidor-type position, instead of the critical Be3 Qd2 O-O-O line. Still, if you like this for white, check out Barsky (2009) Scotch Game for White. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 he advocates 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.O-O, which amounts to the same thing.


Well, it's inferior in that +/= is more than White would theoretically achieve against 3...Bc5  Smiley

Shaw's book also advocates the same continuation via the Scotch Game, btw.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #26 - 05/14/19 at 21:15:28
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I think that 3...g6 as played by Memmedjarow deserves more attention. Essentially is Smyslov Ruy López against 3. Ac4  Cheesy
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #25 - 05/14/19 at 19:40:45
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grandpatzer wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:43:09:
And, on another note, a little book on the rather annoying 3...d6 defence to 3.Bc4 would be very interesting!

"Winning with that 3...d6 thing with which Alekhine won a nice simul game."  Okay, I guess it needs work.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #24 - 05/14/19 at 19:27:33
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grandpatzer wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:43:09:
I thought that 4.c3 was the only "refutation" of 3...d6.
Not even close, 4.c3 g6 5.d4 Qe7 and white is a bit better (see next comment), but black's position is very playable.

mn wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:51:50:
Isn't 4 d4 exd4 5 Nxd4 a bit better for White?
Agreed, and there are other ways for white to be a bit better. But shouldn't white strive for more against an "inferior" move like 3...d6 ...? Now 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 g6 gives black a very reasonable Philidor-type position, instead of the critical Be3 Qd2 O-O-O line. Still, if you like this for white, check out Barsky (2009) Scotch Game for White. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 g6 he advocates 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Bc4 Bg7 7.O-O, which amounts to the same thing.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #23 - 05/14/19 at 19:18:18
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/14/19 at 18:12:23:
kylemeister, what old 6...Nf6 line are you referring to?

7. Qb3 Qd7 8. Ng5 Ne5 9. Bb5 c6 10. f4 and now ...cb or ...Neg4.  Speaking of old Göring Gambit sources, one thing I have which addresses this is a fifty-year-old pamphlet by David Levy.  Some books since then have had such evaluations as equal or unclear.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #22 - 05/14/19 at 18:51:50
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Isn't 4 d4 exd4 5 Nxd4 a bit better for White?
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #21 - 05/14/19 at 18:43:09
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I thought that 4.c3 was the only "refutation" of 3...d6. And, on another note, a little book on the rather annoying 3...d6 defence to 3.Bc4 would be very interesting!
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #20 - 05/14/19 at 18:12:23
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RE: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 d6 5.c3 dxc3 6.Nxc3 Nf6
(or 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 d6 6.Bc4, or 3.Bc4, or indeed 2...d6).

I dunno about these days. I haven't looked at it carefully in ages. If it is no longer considered better for white, I didn't get the memo. But this "better" is a slippery word. It wasn't that white was getting a clear advantage theoretically, it was more like sufficient compensation, therefore a little dangerous for black. Many of my old Goering Gambit sources gave +=, but may have been biased towards white.
Edited:
Hang on, I shouldn't be replying blindfold while at work. 6...Nf6 is right out, black has to play 6...Be6, and that's the line which is "sufficient compensation", possibly +=.

kylemeister, what old 6...Nf6 line are you referring to?
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #19 - 05/14/19 at 15:34:15
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/14/19 at 14:14:51:
I have played 3...d6 a lot, both via the Italian and more often via the Philidor (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Nc6), with rather good results. The only way to punish it is by playing sharply 4.d4! exd4 5.c3!. Just about nobody does that, though.

What, is the old line (by transposition) 5...dc 6. Nxc3 Nf6 supposed to be better for White these days?
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #18 - 05/14/19 at 14:14:51
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Delchev also covers the move order 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4. From the pdf sample http://www.chess-stars.com/resources/Bc4_contents.pdf
Quote:
Alexander Delchev wrote:
My repertoire would not be complete without a rather huge chapter on the Hungarian Defence.

I have played 3...d6 a lot, both via the Italian and more often via the Philidor (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 Nc6), with rather good results. The only way to punish it is by playing sharply 4.d4! exd4 5.c3!. Just about nobody does that, though.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #17 - 05/14/19 at 12:40:10
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Seeley wrote on 05/14/19 at 09:59:59:
You could try Bc4 Against The Open Games by Alexander Delchev, a Chess Stars book from 2018. This repertoire starts with 2.Bc4 to avoid the Petroff, so there's a bit of extra material to deal with what happens if Black plays ...c6 rather than ...Nc6, but the bulk of the book transposes back into the lines you want to see covered.


Sure, but I'd need some ideas on how to gain advantage vs. the solid 3...Be7 (Hungarian Defence) and the weaker (but often played by amateurs) 3...d6 too. In practice I find it difficult to win games vs. these minor defences.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #16 - 05/14/19 at 09:59:59
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grandpatzer wrote on 05/14/19 at 09:34:31:
Apart from this mixing of relatively old books, I strongly feel that we need a good, modern,  repertoire book on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 from White's point of view, updated with current lines vs all Black options...

You could try Bc4 Against The Open Games by Alexander Delchev, a Chess Stars book from 2018. This repertoire starts with 2.Bc4 to avoid the Petroff, so there's a bit of extra material to deal with what happens if Black plays ...c6 rather than ...Nc6, but the bulk of the book transposes back into the lines you want to see covered.
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #15 - 05/14/19 at 09:34:31
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Apart from this mixing of relatively old books, I strongly feel that we need a good, modern,  repertoire book on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 from White's point of view, updated with current lines vs all Black options...
  
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Re: A Complete Guide to 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4
Reply #14 - 05/12/19 at 14:33:04
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RoleyPoley wrote on 05/12/19 at 13:02:58:
I didnt think it was standard practice? (I have no knowledge of the trade so could be completely wrong). Given chess books tend to not to have great selling potential, i thought it was rare that they have multiple print runs - especially as there are usually other books coming out on the same openings soon enough. I think Everyman's idea of repackaging in this way is a great idea - but perhaps a bit too late considering how old these titles are.

I was referring to book publishing in general rather than chess-book publishing specifically. Apologies for not making that clear.

The point you make about it being a bit late for this Everyman release is a pertinent one. Buying, say, the eight Adrian Mole books bundled together for just over Ł20 is one thing, as their lack of topicality isn't important. Chess theory has moved on a lot since the original Everyman titles were published, though, and I wonder how many people will be interested in buying books that are so far behind the times. It's not entirely clear from the OP's link what format this bundle will be released in. Printing and distribution costs are not insignificant, so this would be a bit of a gamble if Everyman are indeed having new copies printed. If the titles are being bundled together as e-books, however, then the extra costs are negligible, I'd imagine, so there's every reason to give this a go in the hope of generating a few sales.
  
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