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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire (Read 15748 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #15 - 05/09/19 at 18:50:40
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MNb wrote on 05/09/19 at 16:12:24:
My decision to join this thread apparently was wrong.
Please stay. Smiley
  
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MNb
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #14 - 05/09/19 at 16:12:24
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You're shifting goal posts. Your question was

"what legitimate tries does Black have to move order White out of this plan?"
I answered this, not the question which repertoires Black may or may not have.

gillbod wrote on 05/09/19 at 15:59:32:
against both your moves white could simply play 1.e3 and 2.e4.

1.e3 d6 2.e4 d5.
1.e3 e6 2.e4 e5.
1.e3 c6 2.e4 c5.
Good luck getting your desired Philidor without the extra tempo.
Btw 1...d6 and 1...e6 or not my moves. You strongly give the impression that you're not interested in a sincere discussion based on facts. My decision to join this thread apparently was wrong.
  

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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #13 - 05/09/19 at 15:59:32
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MNb wrote on 05/09/19 at 10:21:04:
It isn't possible either with 1.d3 or 1.e3 because of 1...d6 and 1...e6. Frankly I'm quite surprised you didn't realize this yourself.


As black we may well have a repertoire with 1.d3 e5 and 1.e3 e5. So against both your moves white could simply play 1.e3 and 2.e4.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #12 - 05/09/19 at 15:36:21
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There is a new book book promising a repertoire with white and black featuring the philidor and old indian. Maybe that is what you are looking for? Looks like you will need to wait till december 2019.

https://www.amazon.com/Side-stepping-Mainline-Theory-Middlegame-Familiar/dp/9056...
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #11 - 05/09/19 at 10:21:04
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gillbod wrote on 05/09/19 at 09:09:05:
[quote author=2425342033252E410 link=1557259229/9#9 date=1557380469]I'm unaware of there being other openings where this is possible.

It isn't possible either with 1.d3 or 1.e3 because of 1...d6 and 1...e6. Frankly I'm quite surprised you didn't realize this yourself.
  

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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #10 - 05/09/19 at 09:09:05
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mañico_feroz wrote on 05/09/19 at 05:41:09:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/08/19 at 04:25:35:
Your "laziness" is misplaced -- you want to save the effort at home, but it will cost you at the board. Instead of struggling to equalize with your black openings, take the extra tempo and the easy equality it gives to white.


+9999999

Playing a generic system against everything has strong disadvantages. You have to prepare well against each one of black setups and, all this time, is basically lost time.

Playing d4 is much more forcing than the reversed old indian/philidor scheme you mention. Yes, you have to know a line against KID, another against benoni, ... but only one line and you can choose which line and use it over and over until you decide to replace it.

You will be making black's life very very easy, particularly stronger players will enjoy your decision, being able to check at chessbase the exact line they want to play with you in 5 minutes.

On the long run - perhaps not so long - most likely, given you will not get very good results, you will have to switch your opening line to a more ambicious alternative.

Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts.



I'm not looking for shortcuts. I'm just looking for validation if white can reliably get rid of a tempo here, because I'm unaware of there being other openings where this is possible.

I've played d4 and c4 as white for 20 years, and played the Ruy Lopez and Slav as black for the last 10 years. No one needs to sell me on the virtues of playing classical chess.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #9 - 05/09/19 at 05:41:09
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 05/08/19 at 04:25:35:
Your "laziness" is misplaced -- you want to save the effort at home, but it will cost you at the board. Instead of struggling to equalize with your black openings, take the extra tempo and the easy equality it gives to white.


+9999999

Playing a generic system against everything has strong disadvantages. You have to prepare well against each one of black setups and, all this time, is basically lost time.

Playing d4 is much more forcing than the reversed old indian/philidor scheme you mention. Yes, you have to know a line against KID, another against benoni, ... but only one line and you can choose which line and use it over and over until you decide to replace it.

You will be making black's life very very easy, particularly stronger players will enjoy your decision, being able to check at chessbase the exact line they want to play with you in 5 minutes.

On the long run - perhaps not so long - most likely, given you will not get very good results, you will have to switch your opening line to a more ambicious alternative.

Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #8 - 05/09/19 at 02:09:54
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Even more reliable than moving a pawn twice (and perhaps sneakier, because less easily forseen) is losing a tempo with a bishop, e.g. Bg5-f4 in an Exchange Slav and suddenly you're Black. Or possibly 1.e4 e5 2.Be2?! Nf6 3.Nc3 Bc5 4.Be2-c4 and White is playing the Giuoco Piano as Black. But you can't force it.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #7 - 05/08/19 at 21:18:05
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I did start the original post by saying "Before I get started: I admit that this is a sorry way of playing as White and not conducive to good chess development. I'm just curious.".

I was just curious if it is possible in this scenario for white to force a tempo loss, because I was always under the impression that white could not do this.

To Leon_Trotsky's point about black simply trying to fianchetto, I feel that the idea still holds water. E.g. 1.e3 g6 2.e4 and claim that they are playing 1.g3 e5 with opposite colours.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #6 - 05/08/19 at 16:26:18
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Better would be 1.e3 e5 2.e4! and winning on time because your opponent forgets that it's actually his move.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #5 - 05/08/19 at 14:42:08
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I mean, if you hate chess so much, you could just give it up, man!  Cheesy
  

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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #4 - 05/08/19 at 04:25:35
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Your "laziness" is misplaced -- you want to save the effort at home, but it will cost you at the board. Instead of struggling to equalize with your black openings, take the extra tempo and the easy equality it gives to white.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #3 - 05/07/19 at 22:17:30
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It is actually surprisingly difícil to get a reversed opening as White in exact same manner that you get is as Black. Point is that as Black you can get your setup when reacting to what White plays. As White, Black have more options since he moves second.

This reverse Philidor for White, Black does not have to play exactly as White plays when Black plays Philidor. You can get a similar setup, but often Black can deviate from getting exact reversed position tempo down.

For example, you seem to want 1. e3 and waste a tempo. But Black does not have to occupy centre, can fianchetto or do something else. Since you as White have the tempo, you showing your cards with this setup and Black can react from it.

Kind of like how 1. f4 is similar to getting Leningrad Dutch reversed, but not exactly. Black is not forced to do 1...d5 and can try to exploit setup in another way.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #2 - 05/07/19 at 20:28:23
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fjd wrote on 05/07/19 at 20:04:02:
Maybe, but why wouldn't you start with 1 e4 and then play d3, Nd2, Nf3, Be2, etc.


I agree, it's a silly way as playing as White.

But the main reason is laziness. I wondered whether it was possible to reliably reach the reach the *exact* same positions as White and Black. That extra tempo can completely change the nature of the game, and it's something I don't want.
  
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Re: An exact reversed Philidor/Old Indian repertoire
Reply #1 - 05/07/19 at 20:04:02
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Maybe, but why wouldn't you start with 1 e4 and then play d3, Nd2, Nf3, Be2, etc.
  
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