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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD? (Read 664 times)
BeeCaves
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #16 - yesterday at 00:45:19
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?


Isn't the endgame after 7 Qf3 Bg6 8 Bxf6 Qxf6 9 Qxf6 gxf6 supposed to be pretty unpleasant for Black, at least in over-the-board games?  At least Flear in his NIC Yearbook review of Karolyi's book seemed skeptical of the line and noted some missing coverage in the book.

  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #15 - yesterday at 00:41:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/23/19 at 13:39:28:
BeeCaves wrote yesterday at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7

After 8Qc2, Cox and Davies, in their respective books, recommend 8...Nh5. How about Ntirlis?


Ntirlis always inserts ...h6 before ...Nh5, although this means White can often choose between Bf4 and Bh4 in response.

One of his main ideas is to avoid 8 Nge2 Nh5 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 g4 Nf6 11 Ng3 when he considers the g4-g5 threaten annoying and wants to have ...h7-h6 in. 
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #14 - 05/23/19 at 20:11:29
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/23/19 at 19:30:57:
Max Illingworth, CP, has covered 8Nge2 0-0, finding it acceptable for black.

That 11...g6, with the idea of ...Ne6 and ...b5, was new to me.  One might wonder how many White players are well-prepared for such a thing.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #13 - 05/23/19 at 19:30:57
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kylemeister wrote on 05/23/19 at 08:30:21:
MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.

On that historical note, Salov-Andersson continued 12 ...Ng7 13.g4 Bd7 14.Nf3 O-O-O 15.Ne5 Kb8 16.Rc1 Bc8 17.Na4 f6 18.Nf3 Nxa4 19.Qxa4.  Looking at the 32-year-old Informant in my hands, the notes by GM Makarichev (I recall him as a Petroff player, with which he once pummeled Ljubojevic) give 19...g5! 20. Rc3 h5 21. Ra3 a6 22. Rg1 hg 23. hg Rh3 with counterplay on the kingside.


Cox and Davies, in their respective works, each cover this (11th move or so) position in one of their games. I went to Chess Assistant and did a search on the position from 2016-2019. It came up with 31 games: 9 wins for white, 10 wins for black. So with that sample, the line looks viable for black. I would say this is no reason for black to avoid playing the QGD.

If white wants to sidestep this, he can play 8Nge2. Davies seems to like Nf8 here. This is also covered by Chess Publishing (CP).

Max Illingworth, CP, has covered 8Nge2 0-0, finding it acceptable for black.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #12 - 05/23/19 at 13:39:28
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/22/19 at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7


After 8Qc2, Cox and Davies, in their respective books, recommend 8...Nh5. How about Ntirlis?
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #11 - 05/23/19 at 13:34:02
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?


A matter of perspective, I guess. A nuisance for white; an opportunity for black? It's recommended by Cox and conflicting opinions have been advanced at Chess Publishing.

It seems to me that the exchange variation is several distinct variations, each difficult to evaluate, and this is one of them.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #10 - 05/23/19 at 08:30:21
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.

On that historical note, Salov-Andersson continued 12 ...Ng7 13.g4 Bd7 14.Nf3 O-O-O 15.Ne5 Kb8 16.Rc1 Bc8 17.Na4 f6 18.Nf3 Nxa4 19.Qxa4.  Looking at the 32-year-old Informant in my hands, the notes by GM Makarichev (I recall him as a Petroff player, with which he once pummeled Ljubojevic) give 19...g5! 20. Rc3 h5 21. Ra3 a6 22. Rg1 hg 23. hg Rh3 with counterplay on the kingside.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #9 - 05/23/19 at 07:16:45
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Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.
  

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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #8 - 05/22/19 at 22:05:40
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/22/19 at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7 8 h3!?
...
His solution is 8... h6 9 Bf4 Nb6 10 Nf3 0-0 11 Qc2 Nc4 12 0-0 Re8 13 Rac1 Bd6


Reading between the lines, I assume white wants to avoid 8Qc2 Nh5.

John Cox in his book on the QGD (games 41-44) advocated that black play...Nh5 in this position. White and black often castle queen side. It would be noteworthy if the best white players are avoiding that line. It would almost constitute an endorsement.

After 8h3 (or 8Nge2), I think Black is OK in lines with king-side castling.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #7 - 05/22/19 at 19:29:51
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Also I think Semi-Tarrasch is becoming more popular, so some elite GMs try it, e.g. Dominguez, Kramnik and So.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #6 - 05/22/19 at 18:10:03
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/22/19 at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7 8 h3!?

Incidentally that was a recommendation for White on a ChessBase DVD (by Jonas Lampert, in German) about six months ago.  (A few months before that, there were a few pages on it in Tibor Karolyi's book, for Black.)

edit:  the "few pages" I mentioned doesn't include the old major line which can arise via 8...0-0 9. Qc2 Re8 10. Nf3 Nf8 11. 0-0.  (In that case Karolyi has 11...g6, as did Illingworth in his recommendations for Black in Chess Publishing.)
« Last Edit: 05/22/19 at 21:46:50 by kylemeister »  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #5 - 05/22/19 at 17:46:10
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Similarly I noticed in 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc6 a6 Carlsbad system, White often avoids trading the dark squared bishops in this line:

4 exd5 cxd5 5 Bf4 Nf6 6 e3 Bd6 7 Bg5 ...

It looks like some GMs like Magnus even tried to prevent this with the strange move order 4 exd5 cxd5 5 Bf4 c6 (to protect d5) even though it's a lot of pawn moves and allows funny lines like:

4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bf4 c6 6 Nf3 Bd6 7 Bxd6 Qxd6 8 e4 dxe4 9 Nxe4 Qe7 10 Qe2 Nh6 11 Nd6+ Kd8

Magnus has even played 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Nf3 h6 a couple times, it looks like again trying to make sure dark squared bishops get traded instead of allowing a Bg5 pin.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #4 - 05/22/19 at 17:31:37
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Not sure if this is the reason Black players are avoiding this, but as someone studying the lines for Black based on Ntirlis' QGD book, I was a bit worried about the lines where White avoids trading dark squared Bishops:

1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7 8 h3!?

White plans to meet ...h6 with Bf4 to avoid Nh5 trading.  Nh5 right away hangs a piece ... if Black tries to castle before Nh5 then Qc2 and Black will still need to play h6 because h7 hangs.

If 8... Ne4 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 Bxe4 dxe4 11 Qg4 Nf6 12 Qxg7 Rg8 13 Qh6 Rxg2 14 Nge2 Rg6 15 Qh4 Ntirlis likes the position for White

His solution is 8... h6 9 Bf4 Nb6 10 Nf3 0-0 11 Qc2 Nc4 12 0-0 Re8 13 Rac1 Bd6 ...

White has a lot of alternatives that aren't analyzed though ... he can play 11 Ne5 prior to ...Nc4, could play 13 Ne2 trying to disrupt the Nc4, he could play Qe2 instead of Qc2, etc.  Comp thinks its +/= ...

Black's position seems sound enough that eventually he should be okay but maybe White is more pleased with the opening here than say, what White often gets in non-exchange QGD?

So many of those lines, it just feels like Black gets to trade lots of pieces/pawns and as long as he neutralizes slight White initiative, it's totally equal.

This 8 h3 line isn't very common (Ntirlis' line has hardly been played), but Wesley So, Wojtaszek, Eljanov have played it ...

  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #3 - 05/16/19 at 21:52:31
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I don’t think it’s necessarily players avoiding the QGD exchange, but people seeking the Nimzo.

Both are of solid theoretical standing, but black has more options to dictate the structure in the Nimzo.

Also, even though the QGD exchange is close to equal, it’s possible for white to specialise in the arising structures and score heavily. Keith Arkell is an example (though he often commits to an early Nf3 IIRC).
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #2 - 05/15/19 at 23:07:11
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 05/15/19 at 22:01:44:
White players feel that it is easy to play for White. However it is also fairly easy to play as Black. Especially for Cf3 lines compared to Cge2 lines. Plans are easy and well established for both sides.


They are, but personally I've given up on it. The cheapo tricks possible in a Kings Indian have more appeal.
  
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