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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD? (Read 14488 times)
MarinFan
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #22 - 08/26/24 at 10:42:16
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I think 1.d4 players have done a sterling  propaganda job. Really significant fear, for objectively very tiny advantages, especially in club players playing black. 
Examples like game 3 of Nepo v Ding match https://www.chess.com/news/view/fide-world-chess-championship-2023-game-3 show how solid black's position is. Combining ideas of exchanging black squared bishops as in  Ntirlis' QGD book, with playing b5 and using knight on queen-side to neutralise Botvinnik plan of f3 and e4. 
There are also ideas like 1.d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4Bg5 Nb-d7 5Nf3 c6 aiming for Cambridge Springs 6pxp e6xd5 7e3 h6 8Bh5 -g5 9Bg3 Nh5 winning the two bishops but allowing king-side pawn structure damage. Played in recent candidates Gukesh v Caruana 2024.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #21 - 01/22/22 at 02:40:09
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FreeRepublic wrote on 01/22/22 at 01:29:17:
Perhaps Sielecki uses Stockfish also!

He uses primarily Stockfish NNUE -- "like 95%" for that course.  (He talked about this recently on the Perpetual Chess Podcast.)
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #20 - 01/22/22 at 01:29:17
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Keano wrote on 01/21/22 at 21:08:11:
I see Carlsen was defending these Carlsbad structures quite successfully recently using the 3...Nf6 order

I guess these days its a question of taste


Agreed.

Curiously enough, the line given in Reply # 18:

FreeRepublic wrote on 12/07/21 at 20:03:43:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Qc2 Re8 10. Nge2 a5!? 11. O-O Nbd7 12. f3 b5 13. e4 b4 14. Na4 de4 15. fe4 Ne4 16. Be7 Qe7 17. Qxc6 Nd2!? 18. Qa8


can also be found in Cristof Sielecki's short and sweet Chessable line Queen's Gambit #2, which I only recently discovered. I should give credit to Stockfish for some of the analysis I posted. Perhaps Sielecki uses Stockfish also! Sielecki advances "15...c5! etc." as his primary continuation.

I think there is an acceptable move order where black can save ...h6 to the last minute. For example, one could choose to play ...h6 in response to white posting his knight on f3, and refrain from playing ...h6 if the knight goes to e2. Once again, a matter of taste.
  
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Keano
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #19 - 01/21/22 at 21:08:11
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I see Carlsen was defending these Carlsbad structures quite successfully recently using the 3...Nf6 order

I guess these days its a question of taste
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #18 - 12/07/21 at 20:03:43
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TonyRo wrote on 12/06/21 at 19:09:32:
Food for thought.


Indeed.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cd5 ed5 5. Bg5 c6 6. e3 h6 7. Bh4 Be7 8. Bd3 O-O 9. Qc2 Re8 10. Nge2 a5!?
The idea seems to be to follow-up with ...b5 at some point.
11. O-O Nbd7 12. f3 not forced, but somewhat thematic for Nge2 lines.
12...b5 13. e4 b4 14. Na4 de4 15. fe4 Ne4 16. Be7 Qe7 17. Qxc6 Nd2!? unclear. Black's rook hangs, but he threatens Qe3ch winning the bishop in addition to the rook.
Is this any good? Unless your name is Alekhine, you might want to consult an engine.
18. Qa8 Nf6 19. Nf4 Qe3 20. Kh1 Bd7 21. Rfe1 Qe1 22. Re1 Ra8 23. Nb6 Re8 24. Re8 Be8 25. Nfd5 Nd5 26. Nd5 Kf8.
Black is worried that his knight will be trapped.
27. Kg1 Bc6 28. Ne3 g6. Black will play ...f5 and ...Ne4.
Stockfish still favors white a little (SF +23) but I think the game is as equal as it looks.
  
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TonyRo
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #17 - 12/06/21 at 19:09:32
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Is there any real downside, if you're intending ...h6, to just doing it nearly immediately, e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.e3 h6. Then, 7.Bf4 Bf5! appears very solid, and if 7.Bh4 then you just go about your business with 7...Be7 and the like. Seems like the most popular ideas here lately are 7.Bh4 Be7 8.Bd3 O-O 9.Qc2 Re8 10.Nf3 Ne4! or 10.Nge2 a5!?. Food for thought.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #16 - 05/24/19 at 00:45:19
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?


Isn't the endgame after 7 Qf3 Bg6 8 Bxf6 Qxf6 9 Qxf6 gxf6 supposed to be pretty unpleasant for Black, at least in over-the-board games?  At least Flear in his NIC Yearbook review of Karolyi's book seemed skeptical of the line and noted some missing coverage in the book.

  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #15 - 05/24/19 at 00:41:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/23/19 at 13:39:28:
BeeCaves wrote yesterday at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7 

After 8Qc2, Cox and Davies, in their respective books, recommend 8...Nh5. How about Ntirlis?


Ntirlis always inserts ...h6 before ...Nh5, although this means White can often choose between Bf4 and Bh4 in response.

One of his main ideas is to avoid 8 Nge2 Nh5 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 10 g4 Nf6 11 Ng3 when he considers the g4-g5 threaten annoying and wants to have ...h7-h6 in.   
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #14 - 05/23/19 at 20:11:29
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FreeRepublic wrote on 05/23/19 at 19:30:57:
Max Illingworth, CP, has covered 8Nge2 0-0, finding it acceptable for black.

That 11...g6, with the idea of ...Ne6 and ...b5, was new to me.  One might wonder how many White players are well-prepared for such a thing.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #13 - 05/23/19 at 19:30:57
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kylemeister wrote on 05/23/19 at 08:30:21:
MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.

On that historical note, Salov-Andersson continued 12 ...Ng7 13.g4 Bd7 14.Nf3 O-O-O 15.Ne5 Kb8 16.Rc1 Bc8 17.Na4 f6 18.Nf3 Nxa4 19.Qxa4.  Looking at the 32-year-old Informant in my hands, the notes by GM Makarichev (I recall him as a Petroff player, with which he once pummeled Ljubojevic) give 19...g5! 20. Rc3 h5 21. Ra3 a6 22. Rg1 hg 23. hg Rh3 with counterplay on the kingside.


Cox and Davies, in their respective works, each cover this (11th move or so) position in one of their games. I went to Chess Assistant and did a search on the position from 2016-2019. It came up with 31 games: 9 wins for white, 10 wins for black. So with that sample, the line looks viable for black. I would say this is no reason for black to avoid playing the QGD.

If white wants to sidestep this, he can play 8Nge2. Davies seems to like Nf8 here. This is also covered by Chess Publishing (CP).

Max Illingworth, CP, has covered 8Nge2 0-0, finding it acceptable for black.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #12 - 05/23/19 at 13:39:28
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/22/19 at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7


After 8Qc2, Cox and Davies, in their respective books, recommend 8...Nh5. How about Ntirlis?
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #11 - 05/23/19 at 13:34:02
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?


A matter of perspective, I guess. A nuisance for white; an opportunity for black? It's recommended by Cox and conflicting opinions have been advanced at Chess Publishing.

It seems to me that the exchange variation is several distinct variations, each difficult to evaluate, and this is one of them.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #10 - 05/23/19 at 08:30:21
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MNb wrote on 05/23/19 at 07:16:45:
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.

On that historical note, Salov-Andersson continued 12 ...Ng7 13.g4 Bd7 14.Nf3 O-O-O 15.Ne5 Kb8 16.Rc1 Bc8 17.Na4 f6 18.Nf3 Nxa4 19.Qxa4.  Looking at the 32-year-old Informant in my hands, the notes by GM Makarichev (I recall him as a Petroff player, with which he once pummeled Ljubojevic) give 19...g5! 20. Rc3 h5 21. Ra3 a6 22. Rg1 hg 23. hg Rh3 with counterplay on the kingside.
  
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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #9 - 05/23/19 at 07:16:45
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Isn't 6...Bf5 the big nuisance?
After 6.Qc2 Be7 (there is Na6) 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 it seems to me that White ia marginally better after 10.O-O-O Nb6 11.Kb1 g6 12.h3. Sometimes the knight might be better on f3, sometimes not. Neither GM Schandorff nor IM Cox considers this idea of leaving the knight on g1 for a while, though it has been known since GM Salov beat GM Andersson in 1987.
  

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Re: Why do people still avoid the Exchange QGD?
Reply #8 - 05/22/19 at 22:05:40
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BeeCaves wrote on 05/22/19 at 17:31:37:
1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 cxd5 exd5 5 Bg5 c6 6 e3 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd7 8 h3!?
...
His solution is 8... h6 9 Bf4 Nb6 10 Nf3 0-0 11 Qc2 Nc4 12 0-0 Re8 13 Rac1 Bd6


Reading between the lines, I assume white wants to avoid 8Qc2 Nh5.

John Cox in his book on the QGD (games 41-44) advocated that black play...Nh5 in this position. White and black often castle queen side. It would be noteworthy if the best white players are avoiding that line. It would almost constitute an endorsement.

After 8h3 (or 8Nge2), I think Black is OK in lines with king-side castling.
  
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