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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order (Read 2651 times)
Straggler
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #20 - 06/27/20 at 07:23:23
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/26/20 at 20:17:28:
How many games do they show there for 1.e4 and 1.d4?

1.e4 just under 5 million, 1.d4 just over 3 million.

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I think Lakdawala has form for leaving his readers in move-order limbo.

Indeed he does, but this isn't a 'Starting Out' book. Including it in the 'Opening Repertoire' series is a bad joke.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #19 - 06/26/20 at 20:17:28
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That's good to know. How many games do they show there for 1.e4 and 1.d4? I'd like to know roughly how many games I am missing from my Big Database 2018. Eventually I will update that by purchasing a newer version.

I uninstalled CB-14 and went back to using CB-8, so I don't have access to this online database within ChessBase. I do have a premium account and there is a Live Database, but it doesn't really work for me. It keeps prompting me to login, over and over. In fact all their web apps are similar, I login, but then clicking around I see "Premium required" instead of any content, and then get prompted to login AGAIN. The whole time, my username shows in the top-right corner. Maybe I need to be using Internet Explorer?  Wink

To be honest I don't need up-to-date data for 99% of my study. Recently I have been going through Gligoric (1958) Primljeni Damin Gambit and am about 75% through it, the last game I looked at was Euwe - G.Kramer, New York 1948/49.

I think Lakdawala has form for leaving his readers in move-order limbo.
  
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Straggler
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #18 - 06/26/20 at 19:10:05
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@aoc
I was referring to what you see if you check the Online Database box in the View tab in ChessBase. I assumed that that was what you meant. I didn't know there was an iOS app (which doesn't say much for their marketing).

I've just noticed that after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Lakdawala recommends 2...d6, intending 3.Nc3 c6. But I can't find any mention of 3.c4, or of the position after 3.c4 Bg7 4.Nc3. He does say at one point that 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.c4 c5 "leads us to our queen's pawn section of the book", but this seems to be true only if White plays 5.d5.
« Last Edit: 06/26/20 at 20:14:18 by Straggler »  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #17 - 06/26/20 at 14:08:00
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Not a typo at all, but perhaps an error on my part. When I wrote "ChessBase Online" I was actually using ChessBase's iOS app, which they keep up-to-date with the latest games. But I never checked this against any of their other "online" data sources to see if it was the same games. For comparison, from the start position (today) it has 4.971.847 1e4 games and 3.072.177 1d4 games. Their Big Database 2018 (same games as Mega 2018 but without any annotations) has respectively 3.433.566 and 2.133.184.

So now you know what I meant by "ChessBase Online", and in future I will be careful to say iOS app "ChessBase". Now it's your turn. What do you mean by "ChessBase Online"?
  
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Straggler
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #16 - 06/26/20 at 08:11:16
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 06/25/20 at 20:07:13:
ChessBase Online
4.d5  2538  55%
4.Nf3  5124  58%

Is that a typo, I wonder? I'm seeing -

4.Nf3   683   58.5%

And, in Mega Database 2020 (latest update) -

4.Nf3    557   51.9%

I realise that statistics are often misleading, but that does seem a huge discrepancy between two databases which presumably consist largely of the same games.

Still, getting back to the topic: even if 4.Nf3 is only the second most popular move, Lakdawala should surely have suggested how to deal with it.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #15 - 06/26/20 at 07:19:37
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Straggler wrote on 06/25/20 at 18:02:40:
Some mistake here, surely?

The statistical results in my database are similar to OC's just above.
But even if that weren't the case we should be careful with conclusions; first go a few move deeper, like 1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6. Percentages can become quite different.
  

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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #14 - 06/25/20 at 20:07:13
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Why would that be a mistake? Different datasets is all. Don't just look at percentages, also look at the number of games. The ChessBase Online database has many more games, these are not all by Carlsen and Caruana.

1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.c4 c5

ChessBase Online
4.d5  2538  55%
4.Nf3  5124  58%

ChessBase Big 2018
4.d5  1604  54%
4.Nf3 467  52%

Tim Harding UltraCorr 2020
4.d5  242  62%
4.Nf3  150  57%

The above statistics are for the "before" positions. For example, if you click on 4.Nf3 in the online database and then total up all black responses, it is 5543, due to the position "after" 4.Nf3 being reached by other move orders (where white's last move was not Nf3). It's still 58% though.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #13 - 06/25/20 at 18:02:40
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Lakdawala's move order is 1.d4 g6 2.c4 Bg7 3.e4 c5 4.d5 d6 5.Nc3 e6 and 6...Ne7. As far as I can see he doesn't mention 4.Nf3, aiming for a Maroczy.

I've just noticed that in Megabase 4.Nf3 scores much worse than 4.d5, whereas in ChessBase's online database it scores much better. Some mistake here, surely?
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #12 - 06/24/20 at 15:57:52
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tp2205 wrote on 06/24/20 at 12:27:45:
If you do play f5 as I tried then you get pawn structures which also can arise from the Leningrad Dutch with the difference that
- White has already played e4 (a typical plan for White in the Leningrad)
- Black's knight is misplaced on e7.
- Black's e-pawn has been exchanged for White's c-pawn (not something you tend to do with Black in the Leningrad)
- Black's c-pawn is already on c5 (not so typical but not so rare either).

Sounds more like a bad Clarendon Court. But with the black knight stalemated on e7, isn't ...f5 pretty much forced? Unless black wants to try ...Kh8 and ...Ne7-g8-f6 instead.

Quote:
1.d4 e6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 exd5 4.cxd5 Nf6
Unlike the situations arising in Chapter Two (1.e4 e6 2.d4 c5 3.d5 exd5 4.exd5), there is no reason for Black to delay the knight's development because it has no real choice. If the knight begins life on e7, it may spend the rest of the opening and most of the middlegame there, since the f5 square will be taken away once White pushes his e-pawn.
-- Soltis (1994) Franco-Benoni Defense pg.58
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #11 - 06/24/20 at 12:27:45
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> But a comparison to the Leningrad Dutch I find surprising.

What I wrote:

>> I usually tried to get some play with an early f5 usually ending up with a very bad Leningrad Dutch.

What I was trying to say:

If you do play f5 as I tried then you get pawn structures which also can arise from the Leningrad Dutch with the difference that
- White has already played e4 (a typical plan for White in the Leningrad)
- Black's knight is misplaced on e7.
- Black's e-pawn has been exchanged for White's c-pawn (not something you tend to do with Black in the Leningrad)
- Black's c-pawn is already on c5 (not so typical but not so rare either).

The point I was trying to make was that these differences favor White.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #10 - 06/24/20 at 07:15:09
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On an historical note, such a thing as 1. d4 e6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 ed 4. cd d6 5. Nc3 g6 6. e4 Bg7 7. Nf3 Ne7 was given way back (by Victor Ciocaltea -- who alas died at the board a few years later -- in the first edition of the Encyclopaedia of Chess Openings) as leading to a slight advantage for White.  But a comparison to the Leningrad Dutch I find surprising.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #9 - 06/24/20 at 04:54:59
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 06/19/19 at 02:50:46:
Thanks.

I found it quite interesting that (if I can understand him correctly) he knows that he write with this weird humour, and then some readers get pissed off at his writing style  Cheesy

By the way, you can reach such Benoni by delaying development and fixing pawn structure by pawn moves like 1. d4 g6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Cf3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6, then put your knight on e7.


I played the Benoni with the occasional Ne7 for a while (only in Blitz + Bullet games) via 1. d4 e6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 exd5 4. cxd5 d6. My idea was to postpone the decision where to put the knight until Nf6 was "safe". I could not get the positions with Ne7 to work. The problem was that the knight is spectacularly misplaced on e7 (no pressure against e4, e-file is blocked, no good squares to move to.) I usually tried to get some play with an early f5 usually ending up with a very bad Leningrad Dutch.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #8 - 06/24/20 at 03:49:40
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Sounds like something different. Anyone look at the book, is it interesting? A good try as black?
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #7 - 06/19/19 at 02:50:46
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Thanks.

I found it quite interesting that (if I can understand him correctly) he knows that he write with this weird humour, and then some readers get pissed off at his writing style  Cheesy

By the way, you can reach such Benoni by delaying development and fixing pawn structure by pawn moves like 1. d4 g6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 e6 4. Cf3 exd5 5. cxd5 d6, then put your knight on e7.
  
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Re: Ne7 benoni from modern defense move order
Reply #6 - 06/18/19 at 21:35:53
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« Last Edit: 06/19/19 at 00:18:19 by kylemeister »  
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