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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New version of LcO (Read 5748 times)
brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #68 - yesterday at 08:35:33
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I finally bought a new laptop:  https://www.alternate.be/ASUS/TUF-Gaming-FX505DU-AL057T-BE/html/product/1555008?...

I estimate that the Nvidea GTX 1660i is about 40 elo weaker than the recommended Nvidea RTX 2080 see https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-2080-vs-Nvidia-GTX-1660-Ti/4026...

However I didn't want to spend 2-3 times more money for such small gain.

I compared the new portable with my old desktop (My AMD FX(tm)-6300 6 core processor 3,5Ghz is configured with a Nvidia Geforce GTX 960.) and noted the following gains of speed:
Komodo 11 and Stockfish 10: + 70%
Lc0: + 1000% (using Cuda instead of opencl)

I organized 2 new 100 rapidmatches (Lc0 used net 42850)
Lc0 - Komodo 11: 62,5 - 37,5
Lc0 - Stockfish 10: 52,5 - 47,5

Below just one amazing game from Lc0 against Stockfish:

The return-game was easily drawn by Lc0.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #67 - 09/20/19 at 17:37:44
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Ok. Sorry for commenting. Good luck in the future!
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #66 - 09/20/19 at 05:56:43
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The questions are all answered in my article.

The matches with Lc0 were all organized in the months May, June and July with the release which was at that time available (see dates of the games). I know around that period they were bringing out new engine releases which were each time decreasing the evaluation.

I also write in my article that in my last match I was using the net 42820. 42850 was not available at that time yet but I expect very little or no difference at all in strength between both.

Finally don't forget that the matches were played at a rapidrate. Many well played games were spoiled by Lc0 as it was running out of time and was just living from the 10 seconds increment for many moves which clearly hurt the performance.

In both my articles I write that I would love to test Lc0 on stronger hardware but financially I can't/ won't in the nearby future. Donations are of course always welcome.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #65 - 09/19/19 at 22:13:26
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Furthermore, in the third game, after 17...Bxe5, 18. dxe5 is not that highly evaluated by Lc0, although the pv. But once the move is played, the evaluation at depth 27 goes to about the same advantage as SF10 at depth 35. But, yes, I agree, here Lc0 is clearly weaker than SF10.

I guess my point is that on stronger hardware and with the latest T40 net, Lc0 would likely do even better than in your match.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #64 - 09/19/19 at 17:35:56
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Interesting analysis!

What net have you been using for LC0?

With Lc0 v0.22.0 and net 42850, at depth 20, the position after 11...c5 is evaluated as +0.55, and at lower depth it was never more than +0.69. After 30. Ng3, I get more around +-2.60. Do you have the evaluation set to centipawns?
  
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tony37
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #63 - 09/19/19 at 14:58:51
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brabo wrote on 09/19/19 at 06:47:46:
I wrote a second article on my blog which should normally erase any doubts why we all should use neural networks (in this case Lc0): https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/testing-chess-engines.html

very interesting games, thanks
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #62 - 09/19/19 at 06:47:46
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/12/19 at 13:26:05:
brabo wrote on 09/11/19 at 17:20:56:
I finally found some time to write a small review on my blog of why we should use Lc0: https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/leela-lc0.html

Thanks, there's a lot of ideas in that blog post, but to my mind it does not quite explain why we should use Lc0. We can construct several related propositions:
  1. We should prepare.
  2. We should prepare with an engine.
  3. We should prepare with the latest engine.
  4. We should prepare with a specific engine.

(In the above chain, for "engine" we could substitute "book" or "database"; for the professionals additionally "second" or "team".)

For example, I think in your game against Guy Baete, you could have won by preparing the same opening without an engine, just using the database, so I don't see it as an argument in favor of Lc0 per se.

I wrote a second article on my blog which should normally erase any doubts why we all should use neural networks (in this case Lc0): https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/testing-chess-engines.html
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #61 - 09/15/19 at 05:33:05
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Keano wrote on 09/14/19 at 18:32:59:
MartinC wrote on 09/13/19 at 20:30:18:
LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.


why not?

Because the entire engine architecture is different, and the type of operations that neural nets (as opposed to classic engines like Stockfish) engage in are much more efficiently handled by a GPU than a CPU.

For Leela to show her "true" power, you need something upwards of an RTX2060 card - usable in general, especially if you let it run for a while, it is of course no matter your hardware (I have the LD2 net on my phone), but it will be significantly weaker - and most notably, much *more* significantly weaker than Stockfish becomes with dropping hardware levels.

Meaning: You can't really give an opinion on the engine's evaluations if your hardware is so poor that it barely runs. If I somehow manage to install Stockfish on my Nokia 3330, and it gets 1 node/second, going on record with "This engine is actually quite weak" becomes a bit silly.
  
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Keano
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #60 - 09/14/19 at 18:32:59
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MartinC wrote on 09/13/19 at 20:30:18:
LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.


why not?
  
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trw
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #59 - 09/14/19 at 18:14:55
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It's been the standard for over 10 years to use two engines at once... though I have never seen or used a computer strong enough to run three at any real depth.

Anyhow, disagreement usually just means that the position is sufficiently complicated and warrants more investigation... Not that one is always right.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #58 - 09/14/19 at 11:29:09
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One of the ideas I gleaned(stole) is using three engines at the same time say Stockfish, Komodo, and LcO. If any two agree that is the best choice. If all three differ use LcO's choice. Which I guess is an argument for a desktop.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #57 - 09/14/19 at 09:51:17
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It is not the same, but maybe somewhat similar to a tiny Smart car with Hayabusa engine (very powerful engine from motorcycle). The engine has lots of potential, but the steering, traction etc are not. Imagine racing with such a car and trying to make sharp turns in high speed, like real racing cars can.

In this case the net would correspond to the engine and your laptop to the Smart car I guess. When you compare Lc0 to Komodo, it doesn't say much of the true potential of the Lc0.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #56 - 09/13/19 at 21:49:12
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Your best bet will be the LD2 net, if you're on a slow machine without decent GPU @Leon

It's a smaller net, so it's notably worse for deep analysis type business, and retains a lot of tactical mishaps, but it's general evaluation is similar to T40, and it will be stronger on a weak machine.
  
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MartinC
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #55 - 09/13/19 at 20:30:18
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LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #54 - 09/13/19 at 19:39:25
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I usually make Komodo 10 make moves against Leela and try to see what happens. Many times the evaluation goes down when Komodo plays Leela in hypodermic (Modern/Pirc) or blocked (positional Winawer) lines. Quite often Leela can go down by half, sometimes even to only +0,20.

Or maybe Leela has a high White evaluation because it runs slower on my laptop before it can see Black's counterplay ¿ Who knows.
  
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