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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New version of LcO (Read 3937 times)
fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #47 - 09/13/19 at 08:30:05
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brabo wrote on 09/13/19 at 07:03:52:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
Except that I have no desktop. I have not had a desktop since around 1991 or 1992  Cheesy

I think any ambitious chessplayer needs a desktop and a laptop. The desktop is used for making good analysis at home when you have plenty of time. The laptop is needed when you go to tournaments. I see some players using their smartphone instead of the laptop. In theory via the cloud anything is accessible but I prefer a bigger screen to look at.

In the last 20 years I always had a desktop and laptop at the same time which I used for chess. In the beginning I replaced them every 3 years but now I try to wait a bit longer. Those replacements don't come cheap and the gain is not always big.


I agree with you here. A desktop is much better price/performance than a laptop. But, as you say, the gains are not always big. Diminishing returns I guess.

When playing games not at home, I usually bring my laptop, but often use my phone due to laziness, although I also prefer the much larger screen of a laptop.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #46 - 09/13/19 at 08:27:10
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MartinC wrote on 09/12/19 at 21:30:42:
It probably won't be running very well on a laptop? Much happier running on a decent GPU.

Its very classical and likes space, which are obviously somewhat arguable things. I've generally found it to 'feel' really quite sensible with its +/= sort of claims.


I agree with Martin here. Lc0 does not run well on a laptop. Even on a desktop, like my old desktop with core i5-6600K and RTX 2060, it is not supposed to be great with the larger nets. EDIT: It should have been RTX 960.

I think you should try one of the nets that are claimed to be better for CPU in case you want to use Lc0 on your laptop.

The point is that you judge the engine based on a rig that is not good for it.
« Last Edit: 09/13/19 at 14:40:30 by fling »  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #45 - 09/13/19 at 07:03:52
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
Except that I have no desktop. I have not had a desktop since around 1991 or 1992  Cheesy

I think any ambitious chessplayer needs a desktop and a laptop. The desktop is used for making good analysis at home when you have plenty of time. The laptop is needed when you go to tournaments. I see some players using their smartphone instead of the laptop. In theory via the cloud anything is accessible but I prefer a bigger screen to look at.

In the last 20 years I always had a desktop and laptop at the same time which I used for chess. In the beginning I replaced them every 3 years but now I try to wait a bit longer. Those replacements don't come cheap and the gain is not always big.
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #44 - 09/13/19 at 06:56:08
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/12/19 at 19:40:39:
Trying to make new preparations shortly before a game just leads me to play worse. With only a couple of hours available, a better investment of my time is to relax, go for a one-hour walk, work a few tactics puzzles, and refresh my memory as above. Not necessarily in that order.

I can show you many of my won games in which I can prove that they were won largely due to new preparations made just before the games. Besides I also make analysis after a game, have files of likely opponents, study analysis from others and repeat before a game with chesspositiontrainer old files. My private library has in the past 15 years grown to several 1000 of lines which I can use. Still I notice my library lacks very often answers on lines my opponents play.

So I am convinced there is a link between success and preparing games. I play around 2300 level but I also believe this link applies to lower levels.

It makes no sense to talk about using Lc0 in preparing games just before the games if you are not convinced of that link.

I don't know your situation but personally I do quite some sport and puzzles during the year so during a tournament I can fully focus at the preparations and of course also the games.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #43 - 09/12/19 at 22:21:03
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Very strategic/locked type positions and hypermodern openings like Pirc and Modern, I find that Leela overestimates, sometimes to a big degree, Black's chances.

In my experience, in openings like the Pirc and French Winawer where Black deliberately cedes space and assumes a "turtle" approach, it gives outrageously high White evaluations, like +1,30, when Komodo would give around 0,00 to 0,10.

MartinC wrote on 09/12/19 at 21:30:42:
It probably won't be running very well on a laptop? Much happier running on a decent GPU.


Except that I have no desktop. I have not had a desktop since around 1991 or 1992  Cheesy
  
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MartinC
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #42 - 09/12/19 at 21:30:42
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It probably won't be running very well on a laptop? Much happier running on a decent GPU.

Its very classical and likes space, which are obviously somewhat arguable things. I've generally found it to 'feel' really quite sensible with its +/= sort of claims.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #41 - 09/12/19 at 21:08:01
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I find that it tends to favour White in a lot of positions that I do not see White's advantage, and where Komodo usually gives =.

It is very heavy on the battery though. I cannot use Leela without having my laptop charged into the socket, or else it might turn off by itself.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #40 - 09/12/19 at 19:40:39
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brabo wrote on 09/12/19 at 17:02:42:
It is a bit hidden in the article but if you also read the comments next to the moves then you can find the real reason why I am so fond of using Lc0.

I did read those comments before. Although I can appreciate that you like Lc0, it's far from shown that it's necessary.

brabo wrote on 09/12/19 at 17:02:42:
There were probably more than 100 positions I needed to check in just a couple of hours. Books and databases are nice if you have lots of time but Leela is a real asset when you don't have time.

This is 180 degrees the opposite of the way that I prepare for an opponent. I make my preparations well ahead of time, i.e. just after a game, either one of mine against them or one I found published somewhere. I have files on likely opponents, or if I don't have a file on them then I just pick the most appropriate of one of my usual openings. Right before the game I spend a few minutes refreshing my memory from the correct file.

Trying to make new preparations shortly before a game just leads me to play worse. With only a couple of hours available, a better investment of my time is to relax, go for a one-hour walk, work a few tactics puzzles, and refresh my memory as above. Not necessarily in that order.
  
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #39 - 09/12/19 at 18:11:44
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brabo, of interest to you might be https://github.com/dkappe/leela-chess-weights/wiki/Bad-Gyal , or perhaps even https://github.com/dkappe/leela-chess-weights/wiki/Mean-Girl:--the-most-fun-leel...

These aren't as strong as Stockfish (or even base Leela), but have their own sets of ideas, and might be more useful for 'practical' preparation / analysis than the 'godly' engines, in particular if you aren't a 2800+ player.

Bad Gyal 7 in particular is supposedly quite good at finding ideas that work nicely against humans.
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #38 - 09/12/19 at 17:02:42
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/12/19 at 13:26:05:
brabo wrote on 09/11/19 at 17:20:56:
I finally found some time to write a small review on my blog of why we should use Lc0: https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/leela-lc0.html

Thanks, there's a lot of ideas in that blog post, but to my mind it does not quite explain why we should use Lc0. We can construct several related propositions:
  1. We should prepare.
  2. We should prepare with an engine.
  3. We should prepare with the latest engine.
  4. We should prepare with a specific engine.

(In the above chain, for "engine" we could substitute "book" or "database"; for the professionals additionally "second" or "team".)

For example, I think in your game against Guy Baete, you could have won by preparing the same opening without an engine, just using the database, so I don't see it as an argument in favor of Lc0 per se.

It is a bit hidden in the article but if you also read the comments next to the moves then you can find the real reason why I am so fond of using Lc0.
"I started recently to use Leela when I want a quick answer in a game-preparation for an early opening-position which I didn't analyze before."

At this moment I practically only use Leela for that purpose. Besides I also want to add that my opponent Guy Baete played something very different to the line I discuss. There were probably more than 100 positions I needed to check in just a couple of hours. Books and databases are nice if you have lots of time but Leela is a real asset when you don't have time.

My articles are full of those hidden pieces of advice. It is a way to get some interaction with the readers which are interested in the subject and avoid trolls.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #37 - 09/12/19 at 13:26:05
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brabo wrote on 09/11/19 at 17:20:56:
I finally found some time to write a small review on my blog of why we should use Lc0: https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/leela-lc0.html

Thanks, there's a lot of ideas in that blog post, but to my mind it does not quite explain why we should use Lc0. We can construct several related propositions:
  1. We should prepare.
  2. We should prepare with an engine.
  3. We should prepare with the latest engine.
  4. We should prepare with a specific engine.

(In the above chain, for "engine" we could substitute "book" or "database"; for the professionals additionally "second" or "team".)

For example, I think in your game against Guy Baete, you could have won by preparing the same opening without an engine, just using the database, so I don't see it as an argument in favor of Lc0 per se.
  
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MartinC
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #36 - 09/11/19 at 20:32:56
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In some ways I think that's especially true for ameteurs & openings - LC0 is very strongly classical in its tastes and isn't remotely as prone to lines purely depending on tactics as say Stockfish is.

So you get very reliable opening ideas. Useful for fallible memories!
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #35 - 09/11/19 at 17:20:56
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I finally found some time to write a small review on my blog of why we should use Lc0: https://chess-brabo.blogspot.com/2019/09/leela-lc0.html
  
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #34 - 07/08/19 at 21:47:56
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brabo wrote on 06/28/19 at 14:51:37:
tony37 wrote on 06/28/19 at 14:43:01:
@brabo: I also would assume that the more recent networks should be better than number 42000, and yet I see on the rating list that for example number 42600 has 25 elo less, while having a much higher ordo elo. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. And of course not all the networks are on that list.

Have you also tested some version of Leelafish?


No, I have only limited resources available. In fact I wouldn't do those tests if there were good benchmarks available. Progress of Lc0 is so fast that any tests are quickly becoming outdated.

the LCZ rating list now finally gives network number 42700 as better than 42000, so I'm definitely switching to that one
  
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #33 - 07/05/19 at 10:36:43
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I do know that you have to compile it yourself to run it with Linux. If that helps, I have no experience with Linux, hope this helps. You are welcome.
  
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