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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New version of LcO (Read 3679 times)
IsaVulpes
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #61 - Today at 05:33:05
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Keano wrote yesterday at 18:32:59:
MartinC wrote on 09/13/19 at 20:30:18:
LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.


why not?

Because the entire engine architecture is different, and the type of operations that neural nets (as opposed to classic engines like Stockfish) engage in are much more efficiently handled by a GPU than a CPU.

For Leela to show her "true" power, you need something upwards of an RTX2060 card - usable in general, especially if you let it run for a while, it is of course no matter your hardware (I have the LD2 net on my phone), but it will be significantly weaker - and most notably, much *more* significantly weaker than Stockfish becomes with dropping hardware levels.

Meaning: You can't really give an opinion on the engine's evaluations if your hardware is so poor that it barely runs. If I somehow manage to install Stockfish on my Nokia 3330, and it gets 1 node/second, going on record with "This engine is actually quite weak" becomes a bit silly.
  
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Keano
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #60 - yesterday at 18:32:59
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MartinC wrote on 09/13/19 at 20:30:18:
LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.


why not?
  
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trw
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #59 - yesterday at 18:14:55
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It's been the standard for over 10 years to use two engines at once... though I have never seen or used a computer strong enough to run three at any real depth.

Anyhow, disagreement usually just means that the position is sufficiently complicated and warrants more investigation... Not that one is always right.
  
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Pawnpusher
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #58 - yesterday at 11:29:09
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One of the ideas I gleaned(stole) is using three engines at the same time say Stockfish, Komodo, and LcO. If any two agree that is the best choice. If all three differ use LcO's choice. Which I guess is an argument for a desktop.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #57 - yesterday at 09:51:17
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It is not the same, but maybe somewhat similar to a tiny Smart car with Hayabusa engine (very powerful engine from motorcycle). The engine has lots of potential, but the steering, traction etc are not. Imagine racing with such a car and trying to make sharp turns in high speed, like real racing cars can.

In this case the net would correspond to the engine and your laptop to the Smart car I guess. When you compare Lc0 to Komodo, it doesn't say much of the true potential of the Lc0.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #56 - 09/13/19 at 21:49:12
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Your best bet will be the LD2 net, if you're on a slow machine without decent GPU @Leon

It's a smaller net, so it's notably worse for deep analysis type business, and retains a lot of tactical mishaps, but it's general evaluation is similar to T40, and it will be stronger on a weak machine.
  
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MartinC
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #55 - 09/13/19 at 20:30:18
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LC0 simply won't be running very well if its on a laptop CPU.
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #54 - 09/13/19 at 19:39:25
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I usually make Komodo 10 make moves against Leela and try to see what happens. Many times the evaluation goes down when Komodo plays Leela in hypodermic (Modern/Pirc) or blocked (positional Winawer) lines. Quite often Leela can go down by half, sometimes even to only +0,20.

Or maybe Leela has a high White evaluation because it runs slower on my laptop before it can see Black's counterplay ¿ Who knows.
  
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brabo
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #53 - 09/13/19 at 16:04:51
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/13/19 at 15:05:38:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/12/19 at 19:40:39:
Trying to make new preparations shortly before a game just leads me to play worse.


brabo wrote on 09/13/19 at 06:56:08:
I can show you many of my won games in which I can prove that they were won largely due to new preparations made just before the games.


I didn't mean that new opening preparations make me play worse in the opening. They make me play worse "overall". I do a rather sophisticated errors-by-phase-of-game meta analysis of my play, and stuffing my brain right before a game leads to later errors. During my school-days, cramming for a test was also a net negative strategy, despite obviously leading me to answer some specific questions correctly.

Winning a lot of opening games due to preparation is fine if you don't lose any additional middle-games or endgames due to the same preparation. But for some reason, I do. My best hypothesis is that intensive opening study messes with the evaluation function somehow. This is entirely aside from the missed opportunity for relaxation before a game, which is a big contributor to endgame play.

Unless I am woozy before the game, I *never* lose the opening. And I actually like it when strong players have obviously prepared against me. I try to verify that in the post-mortem. My performance rating in these encounters is better than when they just play chess.

I find it all very weird what you experience. The endgame is for me my strongest phase so I definitely don't feel any need to decrease my hours of preparations. Also I found it quite normal at the university to study 12 hours or more per day during the exams. I obtained my engineer degree with high honors, never having failed any exam.

It is always dangerous to give advise based on own experiences but what else can we do. So I just say what works for me and think it could be useful for somebody else.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #52 - 09/13/19 at 15:05:38
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/12/19 at 19:40:39:
Trying to make new preparations shortly before a game just leads me to play worse.


brabo wrote on 09/13/19 at 06:56:08:
I can show you many of my won games in which I can prove that they were won largely due to new preparations made just before the games.


I didn't mean that new opening preparations make me play worse in the opening. They make me play worse "overall". I do a rather sophisticated errors-by-phase-of-game meta analysis of my play, and stuffing my brain right before a game leads to later errors. During my school-days, cramming for a test was also a net negative strategy, despite obviously leading me to answer some specific questions correctly.

Winning a lot of opening games due to preparation is fine if you don't lose any additional middle-games or endgames due to the same preparation. But for some reason, I do. My best hypothesis is that intensive opening study messes with the evaluation function somehow. This is entirely aside from the missed opportunity for relaxation before a game, which is a big contributor to endgame play.

Unless I am woozy before the game, I *never* lose the opening. And I actually like it when strong players have obviously prepared against me. I try to verify that in the post-mortem. My performance rating in these encounters is better than when they just play chess.
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #51 - 09/13/19 at 14:39:29
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JFugre wrote on 09/13/19 at 09:21:58:
fling wrote on 09/13/19 at 08:27:10:
RTX 2060, it is not supposed to be great with the larger nets.

I think you should try one of the nets that are claimed to be better for CPU in case you want to use Lc0 on your laptop.


You have to take into account that there is a scaling issue here. A faster GPU is the same as letting the engine think longer, i.e. a longer timecontrol. Small nets are good for "blitz" because the engine needs to be able to do some minimal searching to see enough tactics. But if the larger nets are better on faster hardware, that also means they are better for longer analysis.


Well, no. It was a writing mistake. It should've been RTX 960, sorry.

Better is sometimes a bit hard to define. It might work better for longer analysis with a decent analysis rate. But at something like 1 knps, the analysis might take too much time in practice, i.e. it is not that good anyway.
  
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JFugre
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #50 - 09/13/19 at 09:21:58
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fling wrote on 09/13/19 at 08:27:10:
RTX 2060, it is not supposed to be great with the larger nets.

I think you should try one of the nets that are claimed to be better for CPU in case you want to use Lc0 on your laptop.


You have to take into account that there is a scaling issue here. A faster GPU is the same as letting the engine think longer, i.e. a longer timecontrol. Small nets are good for "blitz" because the engine needs to be able to do some minimal searching to see enough tactics. But if the larger nets are better on faster hardware, that also means they are better for longer analysis.
  
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MartinC
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #49 - 09/13/19 at 08:55:49
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
Very strategic/locked type positions and hypermodern openings like Pirc and Modern, I find that Leela overestimates, sometimes to a big degree, Black's chances.

In my experience, in openings like the Pirc and French Winawer where Black deliberately cedes space and assumes a "turtle" approach, it gives outrageously high White evaluations, like +1,30, when Komodo would give around 0,00 to 0,10.


I presume you mean underestimate? It doesn't like the Pirc that much, no (or the Modern Benoni come to it). It does seem to be utterly brilliant at handling 'classical' advantages, building up the positions and squashing tactics so it probably backs that up!

It has a very 'unpleasant' habit of reducing seemingly fun lines to two result style pain.

The Winaver its been fairly reasonable about when I've looked.

Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
Except that I have no desktop. I have not had a desktop since around 1991 or 1992  Cheesy


Which is fine, its just that LC0 won't run at a worthwhile speed on a laptop unless you get one with a mobile GPU of course, but that does cost.
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #48 - 09/13/19 at 08:55:46
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Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
In my experience, in openings like the Pirc and French Winawer where Black deliberately cedes space and assumes a "turtle" approach, it gives outrageously high White evaluations, like +1,30, when Komodo would give around 0,00 to 0,10.

The question is: Who is correct?

Have you followed the given lines by Leela, figured out where she diverges from SF/Komodo/etc, and gotten the impression that she just misses all avenues of counterplay, or why she so grossly 'overestimates' the chances?

https://lichess.org/analysis/standard/2r1r3/1p3nkp/pP1pn1p1/P2N1p2/2P2P2/R3P2P/6... in this sample position out of a Dutch Leningrad, SF @depth32 spits out +0.5 with a variety of moves (Rc3, Rc1, Ra4, Bf1). White Advantage, but nothing dramatic.

https://www.chess.com/computer-chess-championship#game=44 Leelenstein did go for one of the SF suggestions (35.Rc3), but thinks White is completely winning (+2.6), and btw has been thinking so.. for pretty much the entire game!
The initial position after the opening book is evaluated by SF as +0.29, and by LS as a whopping +1.59

As late as move 54, SF believes to be in a tenable position (+0.76), while Leelenstein is long confused why there's no resignation coming (+4.26)..
After 55.Bf1, SFs eval suddenly explodes in White's favour, and never recovers.
Did Leelenstein overestimate White's chances here..?
  
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fling
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Re: New version of LcO
Reply #47 - 09/13/19 at 08:30:05
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brabo wrote on 09/13/19 at 07:03:52:
Leon_Trotsky wrote on 09/12/19 at 22:21:03:
Except that I have no desktop. I have not had a desktop since around 1991 or 1992  Cheesy

I think any ambitious chessplayer needs a desktop and a laptop. The desktop is used for making good analysis at home when you have plenty of time. The laptop is needed when you go to tournaments. I see some players using their smartphone instead of the laptop. In theory via the cloud anything is accessible but I prefer a bigger screen to look at.

In the last 20 years I always had a desktop and laptop at the same time which I used for chess. In the beginning I replaced them every 3 years but now I try to wait a bit longer. Those replacements don't come cheap and the gain is not always big.


I agree with you here. A desktop is much better price/performance than a laptop. But, as you say, the gains are not always big. Diminishing returns I guess.

When playing games not at home, I usually bring my laptop, but often use my phone due to laziness, although I also prefer the much larger screen of a laptop.
  
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