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Normal Topic Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london (Read 456 times)
BeeCaves
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Re: Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london
Reply #4 - 07/07/19 at 01:34:58
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semper_fidelis wrote on 07/06/19 at 16:45:49:
BeeCaves wrote on 07/03/19 at 02:24:56:
Hi...

London player here, but I'm trying to switch so might as well give some ideas.

1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 is an interesting system for Black, but doesn't isn't the same if White goes 3 Nf3



After 3.Nf3 there is ...cd (4.Nxd4? e5 or 4.Qxd4 Nc6=)


Sorry, I meant that if you are planning on meeting the London with:
1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6
and instead they play:
1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 (and 3 Bf4)
then you can't use exactly the same system.
  
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semper_fidelis
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Re: Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london
Reply #3 - 07/06/19 at 16:45:49
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BeeCaves wrote on 07/03/19 at 02:24:56:
Hi...

London player here, but I'm trying to switch so might as well give some ideas.

1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 is an interesting system for Black, but doesn't isn't the same if White goes 3 Nf3



After 3.Nf3 there is ...cd (4.Nxd4? e5 or 4.Qxd4 Nc6=)
  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london
Reply #2 - 07/03/19 at 04:20:45
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This may sound bad, but honestly I think that London setup against KID is simply not good. I would play Trompowsky or even Torre Attack if I knew beforehand that the opponent plays KID. Like you said, Black gets fast kingside attacks since no pressure is on his f6 knight. To me, both London and Colle systems are too passive against KID.

Even in the 2th book by Sedlak on his London System for White repertoire books, he does not even recommend London against 1...Cf6, instead recommending Torre Attack.

I play London against 1...d5, but 1...Cf6 I avoid all that trouble for White and go with Trompowsky. It is an odd, annoying line for Black to face and I think that studying it is worth the extra effort.
  
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BeeCaves
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Re: Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london
Reply #1 - 07/03/19 at 02:24:56
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Hi...

London player here, but I'm trying to switch so might as well give some ideas.

1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 is an interesting system for Black, but doesn't isn't the same if White goes 3 Nf3

1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 4 Nc3 ... if you want to avoid a draw go 4... d6 and after 5 Bb5+ both Nbd7 and Bd7 go for Benoni or Sicilian type setups where Black seems equal and are more irregular than normal London positions (and aren't very common).

Or
1 d4 Nf6 2 Bf4 c5 3 e3 Qb6 4 Nc3 Qxb2 5 Nb5 Nd5 6 a3 a6 7 Rb1 Qa2 8 Qc1 axb5 9 Ra1 Qxa1 10 Qxa1 Nc6, Black has excellent compensation for the queen (but White can force a draw earlier with Ra1-Rb1-Ra1 instead of 6 a3 or 8 Qc1)

Against ...Nh5, if White has played e3, the standard response is something like ...Nf6-h5 Bf4-Bg5 h7-h6 Bg5-h4 g6-g5 Nf3-d2
And then it usually isn't good for Black to wreck his structure after ...gxh4 Qxh5 so Black either has to play ...Nh5-f6 Bh4-g3 and abandon getting the bishop pair, or spend a lot more time going after it, say ...Nh5-g7 (if the bishop isn't there yet) and after Bh4-g3, ...Ng7-f5 ... that plan is playable for Black but I don't think White should fear it.  See Le-Kasparov (Garry), St Louis Blitz 2017 for an example.

The Nh5 plan can be more effective in the right move order, say if Nbd2 has been played (or another move like Qc2) so that White can't play Nf3-d2 hitting h5, although White still might have options like Nf3-g1 or he might have player h2-h3 already.

One option is 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 3 Bf4 Nh5 and now if 4 Bg5 h6 5 Bg3 g5 6 Bg3 Nh5, I think Black has a good version of the idea as he played g7-g5 in one go, avoiding wasting a tempo on g7-g6, and the pawn is still on e2 so White can't move the Nf3 to hit h5.

I think Black is slightly better in that position, and the position is a little uncommon and White probably wouldn't feel too comfortable, however, he might do something like 4 Bc1 arguing that the Nh5 has to go back to f6 to stop e4 and going for a draw or choosing a different line, or 5 Bc1 and arguing that Nh5 has to go back to f6 and the h6 move could be a weakness.  Still, I'm not sure Black any problems there and depending on what level you're playing against, someone going Bc1 might be pretty unlikely.  They could also try to play waiting moves like 3 c3 or 3 h3 against 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 d6 but not sure how likely this is.

Some KID players go for setups like:
1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 g6 3 Bf4 Bg7 4 e3 0-0 5 c3 d6 6 h3 Nfd7 7 Be2 Nc6 8 0-0 e5 9 Bh2 f5 10 a4 g5 and you can get the typical KID kingside pawn storm.  I think Black is probably equal and it might not be the most fun thing for the London player to get his king attacked, and you have the h3 "hook" to maybe eventually play g5-g4 with but would also caution that the tactics are a lot different with the White plans on d4-e3 than d5-e4 and the center less fixed -- you can get in trouble if you rush the kingside pawn advance.  At the GM level this setup seems less popular than the KID hedgehog plans with c7-c5, b7-b7, Bc8-b7, Nb8-d7, etc but its still played sometime and I think it's fine for Black and might do well at club level.

Depending on move order, if White has played Nb1-d2 already, than that plan might gain strength since Black can play e5-e4 and the Nf3 can't go to d2.


  
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FizzySoda
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Any Suggestions for KID based odd line vs london
07/02/19 at 21:18:18
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Hey all,

Is anyone aware of an offbeat line against the london that fits with the KID move order.

d4 Nf6 2.Bf4  or 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Bf4.

Would an early Nh5 make any sense. I'm interested in a way to get the london player into a unique or irregular position -- probably impossible to do!

Thanks
  
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