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Normal Topic Dutch vs Reti and English (Read 1273 times)
BigTy
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #7 - 07/18/19 at 05:47:48
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As far as books go, if you play the Leningrad, you could try Malaniuk's book 'The Leningrad Dutch.' There is a decent section on 1.Nf3 f5 and 1.c4 f5.

Moskalenko also covers 1.Nf3 f5 in his 'Diamond Dutch' book.
  
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BeeCaves
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #6 - 07/08/19 at 17:29:47
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Thanks for pointing out the thread -- I was just trying to give a summary of lines -- not trying to claim an objective truth.  I think it's fair to say 2... d6 doesn't have the best reputation regardless of its true evaluation.

I had seen the line you mention
1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 d6 3 e4 e5 4 Nc3 Nc6 5 exf5 Nge7 before ...

Personally, I did not take it too seriously in my research because my goal for Dutch is not primary opening but to play for a win against lower rated opponent's and learn different type of position and:
A) 6 Nh4 Nxf5 7 Qh5+ g6 8 Nxg6 Ng7 9 Qh6 Nf5 10 Qh5 Ng7 and  draw by repetition
B) 6 d4 cxd4 7 Nxd4 exd4 8 Qxd4 Nxf5 9 Qe4+ Qe7 10 Bd3 is a bit dry ... still possible to try to grind for a win of course, but position has been simplified
C) I just did a basic Database search / Stockfish analysis and not very many games have been played with the line and I had no idea if White had something even better.

I have no evidence that it is objectively bad though -- maybe it is better than 2... Nc6, but I think 2... Nc6 3 d4 might lead to messy middle games that some Dutch players are going for even if they are not ideal for high level correspondence, etc.


  
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brabo
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #5 - 07/08/19 at 08:14:34
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BeeCaves wrote on 07/07/19 at 22:04:15:
1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 d6 3 e4 doesn't have a very good reputation for Black ever since a really young Magnus Carlsen crushed Dolmatov in 19 moves as White in 2004, but some people still go for it.

1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 Nc6 is interesting, when if White goes 3 e4 e5 4 d4 then Black is playing the white side of a Vienna Gambit.  So White might instead go 1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 Nc6 3 d4 and you are a tempo up on normal Dutch but knight is committed to c6.  Unclear position and not very explored.

This is a very superficial evaluation of the opening. I advise you start to look at an older thread of this forum https://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/YaBB.pl?num=1098031385/60#60
  
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #4 - 07/07/19 at 22:44:11
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Incidentally that Vienna transposition occurred last year in Svane-Kindermann.  After the game, an interviewer referred to Carlsen-Dolmatov, and the 20-year-old GM Svane's memory needed some jogging until he said approximately:  ah yes, I remember the game, from a book by Simen Agdestein I had when I was 11.
  
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #3 - 07/07/19 at 22:04:15
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There are some English/Reti variations in the chess24 video/e-book on Leningrad Dutch that might be of interest to you.

1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 d6 3 e4 doesn't have a very good reputation for Black ever since a really young Magnus Carlsen crushed Dolmatov in 19 moves as White in 2004, but some people still go for it.

1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 Nc6 is interesting, when if White goes 3 e4 e5 4 d4 then Black is playing the white side of a Vienna Gambit.  So White might instead go 1 Nf3 f5 2 d3 Nc6 3 d4 and you are a tempo up on normal Dutch but knight is committed to c6.  Unclear position and not very explored.
  
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #2 - 07/07/19 at 12:07:38
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Thanks for the post. You know I was actually thinking of playing e5 vs the English. What do you like to play against it? So you go closed English? I just feel d4 for white takes the fun out of it. I usually play e6 on move one so vs the Reti, I feel I have to be careful of lines with d3 and e4 it if let's say I play d5 on move 2, then they could play d4.
  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch vs Reti and English
Reply #1 - 07/07/19 at 06:27:40
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There is not much to explain - not nearly enough to justify an entire book. The question is basically what happens if White refuses to play d2-d4.

1a. Leningrad: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.Nf3 (or 5.d3 or 5.e3) O-O 6.O-O d6 7.d3 e5 is the Closed English (1.c4 e5 etc.). You might also take a look at the Closed Sicilian (1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6) and the Big Clamp (1.e4 c5 2.d3 Nc6 3.g3 g6).
1b. White's results are poor with the KIA.

2a. Stonewall: 1.c4 f5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 d5 5.O-O c6 6.Nc3 Bd6 7.d3 idea 8.e4 is the big problem. Brabo has written about it on his blog. 6...Be7 7.d4 might be an unwelcome transposition. No idea how 6...Na6 and 6...Nbd7 fare.
2b. 1.Nf3 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.O-O d5 5.d3 c6 6.Nbd2 seems to be a problem too.

3a. Ilyin-Zhenevsky: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.d3 O-O 6.e3 and I'm not fond of d6 7.Nge2 because White will block any Black attack with a well-timed f2-f4. As I'm not fond of 6...d5 either (personal taste) I've switched to 1.c4 e5 and 2...f5.
3b. Imo 1.Nf3 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.O-O Be7 5.d3 O-O 6.e4 e5 is pretty good for Black.

4. Alekhine Variation: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 Be7 5.Nf3 O-O 6.O-O Ne4 looks dubious, but d6 7.d4 Ne4 is possible.

5. Strictly classical: 1.c4 f5 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 avoids Bb4. As I've decided to play the Dutch this way I've switched to 1.c4 e5 and 2...f5.

6. Hort-Antoshin: 1.c4 f5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d6 4.Bg2 c6 5.d3 e5 is the Big Clamp with colours reversed.

There is stuff like 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 and Black always can begin with 1...d6; 1...e6; or 1...g6, offering transpositions to the French and the Pirc.
« Last Edit: 07/07/19 at 17:04:21 by MNb »  

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Dutch vs Reti and English
07/07/19 at 02:52:22
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Hi all, I was looking for some book recommendations showing how to play the dutch vs the Teri or English. I do not mind the system (Lenengrad, Classical, etc...) As black. Just looking for something that really explains the ideas. I feel my opening play is week vs those white openings and none of my books seem to cover it well. Thanks.
  
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