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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) (Anti-)Catalan with c5 (Read 2353 times)
stockhausen
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #13 - 07/26/19 at 09:10:19
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tony37 wrote on 07/23/19 at 12:13:23:
If we just ignore for a moment you're an (ex-)Benoni player, the sad thing is that repertoire-wise the Ragozin and 3.g3 c5 (both very good lines I think) aren't that compatible. Because you still need something against 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 and then you might as well play that line against 3.g3 too.

edit: But I may not be 100% correct here as 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 and 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 don't always transpose. For example: after 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 a regular move is 5...dxc4, but after 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 this move loses to Qa4+


This is very interesting, I always thought 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 was an inaccurate move order due to 4...Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Bd6 when white would have wanted the bishop on f1, but now it makes sense that white actually wants 5.Nd2.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #12 - 07/24/19 at 18:52:06
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Up until now I have been slacking off in my Nimzo prep, mainly playing non-theoretically Ne4-f5-b6-Bb7-O-O in some move order against practically everything. I think that I outgrew these lines though Cheesy.

I am thinking about copying Aronian's Nimzo repertoire, since he has quite some games in Ragozin/Vienna complex and frankly I like his play style. I think this includes your recommendation, so thank you.

To return a bit back to the topic I got a bit of, lets say academic (since I am not going to play it), interest into the soundness of the gambit idea in the original post. I will try to find some time for analysis of it tomorrow.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #11 - 07/24/19 at 05:39:45
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smatija wrote on 07/23/19 at 12:41:14:
Life would be way easier without alternative move orders  Smiley.

This applies to your opponents as well, meaning that you can use them to your advantage.


smatija wrote on 07/21/19 at 12:26:09:
I am currently switching from Benoni to Ragozin (both with Nimzo move order).

You might want to take a look at 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 O-O 5.Nf3 d5 and see if it fits in your Ragosin repertoire.
  

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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #10 - 07/23/19 at 18:04:04
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tony37 wrote on 07/23/19 at 17:42:13:
If you mean 3.g3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 b5 then you need to have something very good against the 6.e4 and 6.Nf3 Bb7/d6 7.e4 gambits
I used to think that 5...b5 was a no-go zone because of this, I don't know if theory has changed here in the last years


Yes, I meant 5. ... b5 and 5. ... d6, I miscounted a bit. And you are right, these e4 gambit ideas look scary. I saw b5 idea in some old thread and then just quickly checked scores in my db, not noticing that score was skewed by unreasonably high number of players playing 6. Bg2?!. Even if black is okay these lines look too fun for white for my taste.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #9 - 07/23/19 at 17:42:13
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smatija wrote on 07/23/19 at 12:41:14:
I am very glad that keeping 3. g3 c5 doesn't mean much extra work, due to my previous repertoire (even though I will probably switch from 6. ... d6 to 6. ... b5).

If you mean 3.g3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 b5 then you need to have something very good against the 6.e4 and 6.Nf3 Bb7/d6 7.e4 gambits
I used to think that 5...b5 was a no-go zone because of this, I don't know if theory has changed here in the last years
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #8 - 07/23/19 at 16:52:28
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3

Black has the option of 3...Bb4+ 4.Nd2 (4.Bd2 Be7 5.Bg2 d5) 4...c5!?

Also, 3...d5 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 0-0 6.Ngf3 dxc4 7.Qc2 a5!? is an interesting line, which can be reached from the 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 move order. The only move order issue is if you want to play 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 dxc4 6.Bg2 b5!?

Still, I like the idea of playing 3.g3 c5.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #7 - 07/23/19 at 16:40:29
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For what it's worth, I think that the Benoni is actually a very good opening specifically against the 3.g3 move order. White has been unable to prove a theoretical advantage in the Fianchetto Benoni as far as I can tell; in particular, 9...Re8 10.Bf4 Bf5!? is a thorn for White.

I also play the Nimzo/Ragozin, so I've also had to find a good line against the Catalan. I found that the 4...Be7 lines are too dull and the 4...dxc4 lines are somewhat unpleasant if White plays precisely (although 4...dxc4 5.Bg2 c6 is interesting), so I eventually settled on 4...Bb4+, which is theoretically sound but also offers some chances for dynamic counterplay. Quality Chess recently published a book by GM Roiz on the Queen's Indian and Catalan which covers 4...Bb4+ quite well.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #6 - 07/23/19 at 12:41:14
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Life would be way easier without alternative move orders  Smiley. Especially 1. d4 is such a transpositional hell (if we ignore Reti and English, which are even worse in that regard).

Reaching Ragozin especially seems a bit awkward to me - 1. d4 d5 move order and you have to deal with Exchange, Nimzo move order and you have to deal with Catalan (and twice at that).

I want to keep at least a bit of Benoni in my repertoire, since I enjoy games in it a lot. I also want to learn some more position types, which is why I am changing my main answer to Nf3 to Ragozin. Additional benefit is that this would bring my OTB repertoire at least a bit closer to my ICCF repertoire (I don't dare play Benoni against decent correspondence players).

I am very glad that keeping 3. g3 c5 doesn't mean much extra work, due to my previous repertoire (even though I will probably switch from 6. ... d6 to 6. ... b5).

Edit: Funnily the only GM against GM game in my database in line:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 dxc4 6.Qa4+ Nc6 7.Bxc6,
ended with a draw. To be fair, it was a blitz game.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #5 - 07/23/19 at 12:13:23
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If we just ignore for a moment you're an (ex-)Benoni player, the sad thing is that repertoire-wise the Ragozin and 3.g3 c5 (both very good lines I think) aren't that compatible. Because you still need something against 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 and then you might as well play that line against 3.g3 too.

edit: But I may not be 100% correct here as 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 and 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 don't always transpose. For example: after 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 a regular move is 5...dxc4, but after 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 Bb4+ 5.Nd2 this move loses to Qa4+
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #4 - 07/23/19 at 11:58:57
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I guess you are right, I didn't realize that there is such a big difference between workload in these two lines.Thank you both for your help.

I think I am going to explore Bb4+ a bit.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #3 - 07/23/19 at 09:14:08
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Yeah, but 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.e3 is not quite the same as 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 4xd5 5.Nf3 Nf6 6.g3. If you include the latter in your repertoire Eric's point stands: you'd might as well just play the Tarrasch Defense from the start. So 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 c5 doesn't make much sense.
But if you're willing to play a difficult main line against a rare move order nobody will stop you. You asked us what we think. With Eric I think your solution highly impractical. That's not a matter of misunderstanding; I've considered taking up the Ragosin myself and hence have met the same problem.
  

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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #2 - 07/23/19 at 06:34:54
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I think we misunderstood each other about move order - after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 I am going to revert to Benoni, but my problem is that white can also reach the Catalan through 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3, where transposition to Benoni is of course impossible.

I face Catalan very rarely so I would prefer to have against it either something relatively non-theoretical, or something with which I am already at least a bit familiar. When I played Benoni I wasn't able to dodge Tarrasch anyway - to 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. e3 practically only okay answer is 4. ... d5 transposition to Tarrasch, so I have at least a passing familiarity with it.
  
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Re: (Anti-)Catalan with c5
Reply #1 - 07/21/19 at 13:32:13
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We have some other threads about this, for instance discussing 5.cxd5 Nxd5, which I don't think is all that good for Black. But if I were you and I wanted to play the Ragozin, I would not want to play the main-line Tarrasch, which is what is happening after 5.cxd5 exd5.  You'd might as well just play the Tarrasch Defense from the start.

I suggest playing 3.g3 c5 and either reverting back to the Benoni after 4.d5, or playing something different altogether against the Catalan, such as one of the closed variations with 4...Bb4+.
  
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(Anti-)Catalan with c5
07/21/19 at 12:26:09
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Hello,

I am currently switching from Benoni to Ragozin (both with Nimzo move order). I will still be answering 3. g3 with c5, but I still have to choose a reply to 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3.

Currently I am looking at 4. ... c5, which at first glance maybe looks a bit dubious. I already glanced at:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. g3 c5 5. cxd5 exd5 transposes to Tarrasch without Nc3.

5. exc5 Bxc5 6. exd5 Qb6 (probably, in recent ICCF game 6. ... Qxd5 was tried) 7. e3 O-O looks like an interesting gambit.

I think the main move to check is 5. Bg2. 5. ... dxc4 now transposes to open Catalan, which I would like to dodge if possible, so probably 5. ... Nc6. Now 6. O-O (6. cxd5 exd5 is again Tarrasch without Nc3) Be7 (6. ... dxc4 is open Catalan again) 7. dxc5 (7. cxd5 transposes to Tarrasch without Nc3) or 7. Nc3.

What do you think? Do independent lines look sound enough for OTB play? Since I don't know much about Tarrasch yet, are these transpositions to it satisfactory? Did I miss any significant line?

I hope this is the right section, since even if positions aren't quite Catalanish, move order is.

Have a nice day!
  
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