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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Supposed refutation (Read 681 times)
smatija
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #11 - 07/28/19 at 08:13:45
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It's well known that black is easily = (if nothing else through transposition to Alapin). I think they mean at least aesthetic + for black.

Edit: At the end of annotations on uschess challenge is further specified with: "I challenge readers to try to prove that White can equalize from this position or to find earlier improvements for White after 4.Nxc3". This position being after 9. ... hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 13. Nxg5 g6.

His argument that black is better there is based on king activity, bishop pair and d5 outpost. Additionaly he says that in 45 Stockfish self-play games black always drew or won.

I consider selfplay gamea very unreliable heuristic and I doubt a bit that black king activity is a trump. We are still in middlegame after all (albeit queenless).
« Last Edit: 07/28/19 at 09:56:57 by smatija »  
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Leon_Trotsky
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #10 - 07/28/19 at 07:41:26
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How is "refutation" defined here ¿ Is refutation mean Black is easily =, or does he have to go further to =+ ¿
  
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tp2205
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #9 - 07/28/19 at 05:00:39
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The funny thing is that most of this is already in Langrock's The Modern Morra Gambit (definitely the second edition but probably also the first). Langrock seems to agree that the hxg5 lines are slightly better for Black and gives 8.Be3 "with compensation" without any further analysis (which I interpreted to mean that he did not find any concrete solution).
  
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proustiskeen
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #8 - 07/27/19 at 18:53:52
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This may be of interest to readers of this thread. US Chess is running an analytical contest on the topic with two prizes.

https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/
  
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tony37
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #7 - 07/26/19 at 19:40:39
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advantages of black are: bishop pair and more central king (important in an endgame, and he's safe on e7 because white's dark-squared bishop is missing)
also: the white pieces on g5 (after 13.Nxg5), b5 and c4 aren't very stable
  
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smatija
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #6 - 07/26/19 at 13:43:34
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Of course I agree that this is no refutation.

I think that the position after Ke7 is easier for white to play, but nonetheless I think that black isn't worse. Due to exchange of queens and pair of minors I think that white cannot achieve much with his activity and better development if black is precise enough. Additionaly bishop pair gives him some long term chances.

In short I would call position even but practically I would take white.
  
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MNb
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #5 - 07/26/19 at 13:14:33
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You're right, Black does not need to give up the exchange, but with inactive pieces on a8, c8 and f8 Black is not exactly OK yet. A refutation (see the first comment) it certainly it is not.
  

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smatija
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #4 - 07/26/19 at 12:42:37
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I don't understand why black has to give up an exchange?

9. ... hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 and black returns the pawn but seems to be okay.

9. ... hxg5 10. d6?? Nd5 11. Bxd5 Qa5+ --+
  
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fling
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #3 - 07/26/19 at 10:18:48
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MNb wrote on 07/26/19 at 10:11:10:
Still White is better.


You posted at the same time as me, lol.

What variation is it you are thinking of, 8. Nb5 d5 9. Bf4 Ng6 10. Nc7+ Ke7 11. Bg3 dxc4 12. Nxa8 ?

The idea here is 12...e5 and the knight is trapped on a8, and White doesn't seem to have a way to prevent black from picking it up and consolidating.

The variation with 9.exd5 is better, and the play following that move is what I was commenting on, to clarify my previous post.
  
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fling
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #2 - 07/26/19 at 10:12:27
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It seems like the analysis holds so far, even though I don't think Black has an advantage (or very small) in some of the lines. At least White has a somewhat easier game and pretty unclear play as compensation.

Anyhow, the variation has been played in two games OTB, but not between high rated players. The highest level game is a bullet game, Esserman-Nakamura, ICC 2008.
  
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MNb
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #1 - 07/26/19 at 10:11:10
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Palkovi 2000 gives a game Wustefel-Helfrich, NEDchT 1966. 7...h6 8.Nb5 d5 9.exd5 exd5 10.Bf4. Now Paklkovi is not the most reliable analyst ever and sure enough he places his two questionmarks at the wrong spot. With 9...hxg5 Black gives up an exchange and will put up a fight. Still White is better.
However I'd be curious what engine you use and why it makes you think White is in trouble after 9...exd5? because after 10.Bf4 White  wins the exchange and keeps on attacking.
You better be suspicious when someone claims to have refuted the Morra Gambit. It may be a bit dubious, but White has a lot of tempi, so proving an objective advantage for Black will be very hard, if possible.
  

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stockhausen
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Supposed refutation
07/26/19 at 09:00:31
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Some guy is claiming the line 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 Nge7 7.Bg5 h6 as a refutation (or at least path to a clear edge for black) of the Morra, with the idea of meeting 8.Nb5 with 8...d5. I haven't seen the analysis but I briefly looked at this with an engine and it seems to me that white is in a spot of trouble here, does anyone know anything about this line? Also I'm curious why it hasn't been played before, 7..h6 seems to be a novelty in OTB games.
  
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