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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Supposed refutation (Read 2859 times)
TopNotch
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #19 - 01/13/20 at 02:38:08
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Not such a big fan of the 2...Nf6 Alapin for Black, yeah the positions are mostly equal but as Dorian Rogozenko so adeptly put it in his Alapin Chessbase DVD back in the day, it's an equality slightly better for White Smiley. If you choose this route you let White off the hook and are essentially saying I consider the Morra Gambit dynamically equal so better transpose to a different line. I play the Alapin quite often as White, and consider the 2...Nf6 lines to offer Black zero winning chances if you know your stuff.

If Black really wants to fight for the win he has to accept the Morra, just ask Vishy Anand. There are plenty good rational lines in the Morra accepted for Black to choose from and he should do so.
« Last Edit: 01/14/20 at 01:48:44 by TopNotch »  

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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #18 - 01/12/20 at 23:34:21
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Nickajack wrote on 01/12/20 at 05:59:12:
It seems that every few years someone comes out with such a supposed "refutation" of the Smith-Morra.



The pragmatic solution for Sicilian players is to adopt .. Nf6 lines against the Alapin. So 1. e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3. c3 Nf6 with a probable transposition.

Intransigent Smith-Morra players can have similar attitudes to intransigent Blackmar-Diemer players. They are unwilling to admit that their central pawn sacrifice is a bit dubious and requires a lot of analytical work to keep it alive.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #17 - 01/12/20 at 22:47:31
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Syzygy wrote on 01/12/20 at 20:38:31:
I would like to provide you with a primary source so that you can draw your own conclusions, but unfortunately Twitch seems to delete old streams after a while.

Logozar provides this link:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/450682829

but it only leads to a blank page now. Nevertheless, I can offer you other links where you can read Logozar's secondary account of the incident and other people's opinions on his so-called "refutation":

https://www.chess.com/blog/LogoCzar/does-esserman-believe-that-his-line-has-been...

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/cilxi3/a_bust_to_the_smithmorra_gambit_u...

http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=71408

https://www.chessable.com/discussion/thread/111839/vote-course-name-change-mangl...

Especially interesting is the last link, in which Logozar reveals that GM Aagaard and IM Esserman contacted him to change the cover photo of the course, in light of possible copyright violations.


Thanks for all the background info Syzygy it looks to be quite an intriguing saga, and I will definitely comb through the links when I get the chance. I commented on a flaw in one of Logozar's other Chessable courses once and he brushed me off, it was quite funny actually, he is quite passionate about his Engine lines but hardly seems to fully grasp the complexity behind them or practicality of granting such an initiative in an OTB game.
  

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Syzygy
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #16 - 01/12/20 at 20:38:31
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I would like to provide you with a primary source so that you can draw your own conclusions, but unfortunately Twitch seems to delete old streams after a while.

Logozar provides this link:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/450682829

but it only leads to a blank page now. Nevertheless, I can offer you other links where you can read Logozar's secondary account of the incident and other people's opinions on his so-called "refutation":

https://www.chess.com/blog/LogoCzar/does-esserman-believe-that-his-line-has-been...

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/cilxi3/a_bust_to_the_smithmorra_gambit_u...

http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?t=71408

https://www.chessable.com/discussion/thread/111839/vote-course-name-change-mangl...

Especially interesting is the last link, in which Logozar reveals that GM Aagaard and IM Esserman contacted him to change the cover photo of the course, in light of possible copyright violations.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #15 - 01/12/20 at 17:13:19
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Syzygy wrote on 01/12/20 at 01:50:20:
The results to the contest were posted a while ago:

https://new.uschess.org/theory/busts-bust-contest-winners/

In full disclosure, I actually won first place in that contest by analyzing Logozar's recommendation to a draw. So this "refutation," as over-hyped by Chessable, actually leads to nothing for Black.

Logozar's response is disappointing: he offers several alternatives without analysis, some of which I analyzed myself and showed that they do not lead to any advantage. He also agrees that the line is drawn but still claims an objective advantage for Black, something that is mind-boggling to me.

Logozar also claims that White is walking a tightrope, which is not true. I've since analyzed 12. Rc1 to a balanced position based on a triple pawn sacrifice. I've attached my analysis in this post (since I can't seem to get the PGN display to work).

Overall, Logozar's whole approach to this is really irritating. You can look further into the controversy about Logozar promoting his course on Esserman's Twitch stream, but even Hartmann (who published the U.S. Chess article) agrees that Logozar used "controversial self-promotional techniques."

Logozar's philosophy about playing this line is also not self-consistent. If you look at the description for his 1. e4 course on Chessable, which is arguably his most prominent work, he suggests 6. Bc4 against the Najdorf. Unfortunately, as he appears to admit himself, his main line leads to an advantage for Black - but he wants to continue playing the line because White has an opening initiative. How can he then bash the Smith-Morra on the exact same grounds?

As a Sicilian player myself, I'll end my mini-rant here. I'd like to see the Morra "refuted," but this isn't the way to go about it.


Which Esserman stream are you referring to, there are many?
  

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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #14 - 01/12/20 at 05:59:12
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It seems that every few years someone comes out with such a supposed "refutation" of the Smith-Morra.
  

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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #13 - 01/12/20 at 01:50:20
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The results to the contest were posted a while ago:

https://new.uschess.org/theory/busts-bust-contest-winners/

In full disclosure, I actually won first place in that contest by analyzing Logozar's recommendation to a draw. So this "refutation," as over-hyped by Chessable, actually leads to nothing for Black.

Logozar's response is disappointing: he offers several alternatives without analysis, some of which I analyzed myself and showed that they do not lead to any advantage. He also agrees that the line is drawn but still claims an objective advantage for Black, something that is mind-boggling to me.

Logozar also claims that White is walking a tightrope, which is not true. I've since analyzed 12. Rc1 to a balanced position based on a triple pawn sacrifice. I've attached my analysis in this post (since I can't seem to get the PGN display to work).

Overall, Logozar's whole approach to this is really irritating. You can look further into the controversy about Logozar promoting his course on Esserman's Twitch stream, but even Hartmann (who published the U.S. Chess article) agrees that Logozar used "controversial self-promotional techniques."

Logozar's philosophy about playing this line is also not self-consistent. If you look at the description for his 1. e4 course on Chessable, which is arguably his most prominent work, he suggests 6. Bc4 against the Najdorf. Unfortunately, as he appears to admit himself, his main line leads to an advantage for Black - but he wants to continue playing the line because White has an opening initiative. How can he then bash the Smith-Morra on the exact same grounds?

As a Sicilian player myself, I'll end my mini-rant here. I'd like to see the Morra "refuted," but this isn't the way to go about it.
  

Smith_Morra.pgn ( 4 KB | 22 Downloads )
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TopNotch
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #12 - 01/11/20 at 21:44:18
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What's the final verdict now some time has passed, is this refutation still the refutation or is it just another refutation to pile on top of the many others.

All Credit to Logozar on Chessable for marketing this line to the masses, and posing yet another headache for the single minded club player dependant on the Morra.
  

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smatija
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #11 - 07/28/19 at 08:13:45
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It's well known that black is easily = (if nothing else through transposition to Alapin). I think they mean at least aesthetic + for black.

Edit: At the end of annotations on uschess challenge is further specified with: "I challenge readers to try to prove that White can equalize from this position or to find earlier improvements for White after 4.Nxc3". This position being after 9. ... hxg5 10. dxc6 Nxc6 11. Qxd8+ Kxd8 12. O-O-O+ Ke7 13. Nxg5 g6.

His argument that black is better there is based on king activity, bishop pair and d5 outpost. Additionaly he says that in 45 Stockfish self-play games black always drew or won.

I consider selfplay gamea very unreliable heuristic and I doubt a bit that black king activity is a trump. We are still in middlegame after all (albeit queenless).
« Last Edit: 07/28/19 at 09:56:57 by smatija »  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #10 - 07/28/19 at 07:41:26
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How is "refutation" defined here ¿ Is refutation mean Black is easily =, or does he have to go further to =+ ¿
  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #9 - 07/28/19 at 05:00:39
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The funny thing is that most of this is already in Langrock's The Modern Morra Gambit (definitely the second edition but probably also the first). Langrock seems to agree that the hxg5 lines are slightly better for Black and gives 8.Be3 "with compensation" without any further analysis (which I interpreted to mean that he did not find any concrete solution).
  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #8 - 07/27/19 at 18:53:52
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This may be of interest to readers of this thread. US Chess is running an analytical contest on the topic with two prizes.

https://new.uschess.org/theory/bust-smith-morra-gambit/
  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #7 - 07/26/19 at 19:40:39
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advantages of black are: bishop pair and more central king (important in an endgame, and he's safe on e7 because white's dark-squared bishop is missing)
also: the white pieces on g5 (after 13.Nxg5), b5 and c4 aren't very stable
  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #6 - 07/26/19 at 13:43:34
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Of course I agree that this is no refutation.

I think that the position after Ke7 is easier for white to play, but nonetheless I think that black isn't worse. Due to exchange of queens and pair of minors I think that white cannot achieve much with his activity and better development if black is precise enough. Additionaly bishop pair gives him some long term chances.

In short I would call position even but practically I would take white.
  
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Re: Supposed refutation
Reply #5 - 07/26/19 at 13:14:33
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You're right, Black does not need to give up the exchange, but with inactive pieces on a8, c8 and f8 Black is not exactly OK yet. A refutation (see the first comment) it certainly it is not.
  

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